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Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:34 pm | #16

agreed, they are geeks, and I've had my own share of run ins with them (I got banned!) but they almost have a point, sometimes. Lineage is not really important, as compared to ability, but I would say integrety and honesty is. Be who you want to be, but be clear and honest about it. Too often names and nth degrees of dan grades are used as a marketing ploy and used not to show ability, but to imply a standard and mislead.
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Postby Nazareth » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:48 pm | #17

Agreed.

Someone showing me a kata unchanged since the 16th century suggests to me that the style ossified and stopped learning 500 years ago.

Advances in psychology (how people react in situations, and also how we learn), physics and other sciences are not really reflected in most martial arts... and should be.

And while honest, koryu seem to me to be closer to historical re-enactment societies than something you'd use to fight.

Proof of that is how little notice they take of modern weaponry - tasers, guns, etc.

But Great Sage Equal of Heaven, Fako Ohara, 13th Dan (age: 29) is bound to be far worse.
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Postby cullion » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:10 pm | #18

Nazareth wrote:And while honest, koryu seem to me to be closer to historical re-enactment societies than something you'd use to fight.


The weapon work certainly. I'm pretty sure most bouncers wouldn't let me bring a razor sharp katana in. On the other hand, I've heard that some Koryu do randoori (or something like it, sometimes with rougher less restrictive rules than Judo) in their unarmed work after a certain stage of training.

Proof of that is how little notice they take of modern weaponry - tasers, guns, etc.


To be fair, _anybody_ who is teaching martial arts defences against guns and tasers that don't consist of

'get behind cover'

and/or

'shoot back'

sounds a little nutty to me.
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Postby Nazareth » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:24 pm | #19

cullion wrote:
Proof of that is how little notice they take of modern weaponry - tasers, guns, etc.


To be fair, _anybody_ who is teaching martial arts defences against guns and tasers that don't consist of

'get behind cover'

and/or

'shoot back'

sounds a little nutty to me.


Don't jump the, er, gun.

I mean they don't particularly teach gunwork or the best way to use a taser. Or pepper spray. And it sure ain't incorporated in their katas.
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Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:34 pm | #20

there were gun katas in equilibrium.  :soldier:
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Postby cullion » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:02 am | #21

Nazareth wrote:I mean they don't particularly teach gunwork or the best way to use a taser. Or pepper spray. And it sure ain't incorporated in their katas.


Er no.. They don't teach chinese weaponry either.. er.. I'm not seeing your point.
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Postby Nazareth » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:34 am | #22

Thicko :P

They haven't evolved. That's pretty much my point. They stopped thinking that there was stuff they could learn. They thought the only game in town was MMA... oh hang on that's a different crowd!

cullion wrote:
Nazareth wrote:I mean they don't particularly teach gunwork or the best way to use a taser. Or pepper spray. And it sure ain't incorporated in their katas.


Er no.. They don't teach chinese weaponry either.. er.. I'm not seeing your point.
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Postby cullion » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:46 pm | #23

Nazareth wrote:Thicko :P

They haven't evolved. That's pretty much my point. They stopped thinking that there was stuff they could learn.


I think it's more the case that they saw modern firearms and thought 'oh what's the point. Let's at least keep this cool old samurai stuff around for old time's sake'.
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Postby Nazareth » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:55 pm | #24

cullion wrote:I think it's more the case that they saw modern firearms and thought 'oh what's the point. Let's at least keep this cool old samurai stuff around for old time's sake'.


In other words, they stopped learning and ossified. Which was my initial point.
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Postby Genghis » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:26 pm | #25

Depends - there's no harm in hanging onto a fair bit of the tradition.

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Postby Splinter » Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:39 pm | #26

Fluffy_the_happy_lobster wrote:there is nothing dodgey about the actaul jf lineage...although I would perhaps agree that the representations made about it these days are a tad creative...


I think a LOT less craetive than there used to be, which is why the sorting out of whether and how much Miura / Komp / shorinji kempo etc played in Shihan Grahams learning process was a good thing.

Naz I have to disagree some-what if were going back to 16th C then we are talking Tachenuchi Ryu, I would think that the style hasnt changed very much in all that time, but what they teach is the use of 1 human body against another, sometimes involving big sticks, or small sticks , or pointy things or chain type things or a combination of the above.
Human bodies are still pretty much the same.
and a pointy thing is still a pointy thing and a big stick is still a big stick.
They definately train in an "alive" manner, there is always stuff new students need to learn, and contuinuing to practise will always lead to improvement.

Dont know what thier view on firearms is, maybe a koryu person could comment ?
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Postby Urban Fisherman » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:54 pm | #27

Nazareth wrote:Agreed.

Someone showing me a kata unchanged since the 16th century suggests to me that the style ossified and stopped learning 500 years ago.

Advances in psychology (how people react in situations, and also how we learn), physics and other sciences are not really reflected in most martial arts... and should be.

And while honest, koryu seem to me to be closer to historical re-enactment societies than something you'd use to fight.

Proof of that is how little notice they take of modern weaponry - tasers, guns, etc.

But Great Sage Equal of Heaven, Fako Ohara, 13th Dan (age: 29) is bound to be far worse.


I think it's worse than that, human memory and transmission of information from person to person seem particularly prone to change (the second law of thermodynamics applies to information every bit as much as it applies to steam engines). I very much doubt that there's a single martial art that's managed to ossify 16th century fighting. I think there's essentially two realistic options, you can either try to preserve a traditional art, and gradually lose the knowledge that art originally had, or find a way of generating new information (such as competing in MMA bouts) to evolve the art.
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Postby New Jitsu » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:22 pm | #28

Do you think that's the danger with Martial Arts these days - that everyone's 'into' MMA? So many new people have come to lessons where I train and start asking about MMA, BJJ, UFC... and lots of other initials, no doubt. SHI... well, you get my drift.

Is there a danger of sensei's bending to the populus's wishes and changing some of the tradition behind Ju Jitsu? Are the 'old ways' not deemed cool enough to attract new blood? etc etc
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Postby Nazareth » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:33 pm | #29

I don't think it's a question of coolness that we're debating, it's a question of effectiveness. Times move on, science and progress bring us new knowledge, but sadly this isn't really reflected in martial arts. There may not be that much that's changed essentially in what is effectively learning about violence in a ritualised fashion, but I think that the ways in which we learn best, the ways people tend to react to fear and pain, the optimal method to attack (based on physics - I think the National Geographic program mentioned some time ago showed the differences in striking power quite well), and more besides should be incorporated into any martial art that still tries to be true to its origins.
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Postby cullion » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:55 pm | #30

Nazareth wrote:
cullion wrote:I think it's more the case that they saw modern firearms and thought 'oh what's the point. Let's at least keep this cool old samurai stuff around for old time's sake'.


In other words, they stopped learning and ossified. Which was my initial point.


Yeah, but that's kind of the point of a Koryu. It's a 'living treasure'. Not a modern course in police restraint or something simillar.
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