Types of Jujitsu

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Postby Genghis » Fri May 09, 2008 9:31 am | #76

Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain wrote:Catch wresling is one of the few that have survived.  There was once many different styles both unarmed and armed that have all but died out.

I'm obviously more familiar with the a couple of the Scottish ones, not that I have studied them but I did meet a group from near Glasgow who were researching the subject and came to a seminar I was running to demonstrate a form of grappling and sword play that had died out in Scotland around the time of the Highland clearances and only survived through a set of treatises that were discovered a few years ago in Canada.  

The guys I met were trying to piece it back together as it turned out that the entire Highland dancing system was in-fact created as a method of hiding the practice of the fighting arts from the English sort of a musical Kata if you like. problem was nobody knew that was the case.

I'm by no means an authority on this but as I understand it the same situation is reportedly present within all parts of the UK (and in Europe) e.g. Irish Shillelagh fighting.  Arts like these generally died off or went so far underground that they eventually became folklore or worse were completely forgotten through oppression by the established government of the time, and finding solid information on them is now extremely difficult.


It's getting easier - the BFHS is in the lead (although by no means alone) in promoting learning of traditional European martial arts.  As one of their students (albeit a very junior one as yet) I find this stuff absolutely fascinating and it's a privilege to finally get the chance.

For those with an interest who fancy an Autumn trip to Edinburgh, this looks promising.

G
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Postby Quirk » Fri May 09, 2008 11:07 am | #77

Gunyo Kogusoku wrote:I have a colleague in Japan that has trained in Fusen-ryu jujutsu for a good number of years in the Kansai area of Japan.

There are very little if no ne-waza in Fusen-ryu what so ever. It's a great school, nice combative jujutsu, however there are no real ne-waza techniques of the kind that are now present in today's MMA.
Interesting. That would tend to suggest that the ne-waza skill that beat the early judoka was perhaps developed by Mataemon Tanabe himself, and had little to do with his school's traditional curriculum? It seems a little surprising that Tanabe's additions were not passed on, but I suppose once judo had incorporated them and evolved them it may not have been seen as needful.
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Postby PointyShinyBurning » Fri May 09, 2008 12:19 pm | #78

Quirk wrote:Interesting. That would tend to suggest that the ne-waza skill that beat the early judoka was perhaps developed by Mataemon Tanabe himself, and had little to do with his school's traditional curriculum? It seems a little surprising that Tanabe's additions were not passed on, but I suppose once judo had incorporated them and evolved them it may not have been seen as needful.
Guys like Yukio Tani seem to have had a pretty well developed ground-fighting style including guard work, leg-locks and so on, it seems unlikely one guy could have developed it all. I think there must have been a substantial body of technique and skill that was passed on outside the traditional koryu curriculum.
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Fri May 09, 2008 1:58 pm | #79

Sorry Quirk my mistake :oops:

I suppose its also possible that the "original" style now practiced is not as complete as the original?

I can't find the original source but I read somewhere that after the linking with Kano, the style of Fusen Ryu eventually got absorbed into Judo and ceased to exist as a mainstream style.  

That could mean that as a result, the current style has been somewhat recreated based of additional outside influences, of course this is pure speculation on my part.  

Also I have found at least one reference to different branches of the Fusen Ryu specializing in different aspects of technique.
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Postby Gunyo Kogusoku » Fri May 09, 2008 5:30 pm | #80

Quirk wrote:Interesting. That would tend to suggest that the ne-waza skill that beat the early judoka was perhaps developed by Mataemon Tanabe himself, and had little to do with his school's traditional curriculum? It seems a little surprising that Tanabe's additions were not passed on, but I suppose once judo had incorporated them and evolved them it may not have been seen as needful.


Indeed, the newaza that Tanabe used to defeat the Kodokan was Gaiden (Teachings from outside the school's tradition). They are preserved in Fusen-ryu, but aren't really part of the koryu syllabus. They are gaiden.

Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain wrote:Also I have found at least one reference to different branches of the Fusen Ryu specializing in different aspects of technique.


Here's one line Fusen-ryu in Shimane Prefecture. Their dojo also teaches karate-do, but keep the traditions seperate.

There is Shinmei Fusen-ryu in Osaka, featured in the clip on page five of this thread. The Shimane line and the Shinmei line are similar in technique and execution.

There's Takimoto-ha Fusen-ryu which is just a mish-mash of Karate, aikido & judo. They claim origin via the Shinmei line, but don't look anything like it. It's more akin to a modern generic self-defence oriented jujutsu system than a koryu.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby sumosan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:12 am | #81

Slartibartfast wrote:
I hear about all these different forms of Jujitsu and was wondering where WJJF jujitsu fell. The books and senseis all say that it doesn't fall under a particular form, in fact it tries to avoid this entirely by being an holistic art which is just jujitsu in and of itself.

Does anyone have an opinion/explanation that contrasts with this?

Any other WJJF people out there have any contribution?


When I was practicing and teaching with the WJJF we were told only that there were 725 schools of Jujitsu within Japan and that the Art itself was largely dying out.  On doing more research on the subject I have found that Jujitsu itself is based on the successful combative techniques of the warrior classes and they were not bothered too much about nicking someone Else's style if it suited their purposes.  I did have the occasion to speak directly to the Emperors bodyguard when Soke Innoue came across on a WJJF course in the 1980's and he gave a few pointers as to how the current forms of the Art came into being.  Japan was a closed of society until the Americans and Portuguese opened them up to trade. Now the background is set and we all know of WWII  many masters of martial arts were lost in that conflagration and the Americans banned the arts, but slowly the Arts reemerged with the few surviving masters who would realize for their own Art to survive they would have to combine their knowledge and to move on. The WJJF was doing the same thing to combine the knowledge of these people into a structure for the future so that the techniques could still be practiced and have relevance in todays society.   This does not in anyway explain in detail reasons and thoughts of the current masters, but might give you a small insight into the Japanese way of doing things, sometimes necessity forces change and Japan had to change to expand and so did the Martial Arts.  The WJJF became an organization to expand that knowledge but not so much in a generalized way hence when I went for the 2nd Dan grade I had to perform a Preying Mantis Kata.  Which to all intents and purposes is a Kung Fu Kata. Very strange.  But it gave me the insight that there was more to this Art than met the eye. This is only a small part of a larger explanation and there are other people out there that know more than I do so yes keep on asking as I do and you will find out.  :)
He who waits for the axe to fall shall surley lose his head and don't call me surley.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby kaylanx » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:06 pm | #82

sumosan wrote:The WJJF became an organization to expand that knowledge but not so much in a generalized way hence when I went for the 2nd Dan grade I had to perform a Preying Mantis Kata.  Which to all intents and purposes is a Kung Fu Kata. Very strange.  But it gave me the insight that there was more to this Art than met the eye. This is only a small part of a larger explanation and there are other people out there that know more than I do so yes keep on asking as I do and you will find out.  :)


My style used to be part of WJJF but they left ages ago, I'm guessing we've still got a lot in common with the WJJF style as I have just learned that Kata (although it's a requirement for 3rd dan in ours not 2nd dan)



The version here is slightly different to ours, and we perform it much slower, in a Tai Chi style i'd say.  I was puzzled too when told it was a chinese form... Interesting though.

:rei:

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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby Django » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:08 pm | #83

Whenever I start to get nostalgic about leaving the WJJF, I see something like that and it makes me feel much better about my decision.

The WJJF syllabus just gets weirder and weirder after 1st dan.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby captaintau » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:52 am | #84

kaylanx wrote:

I think that this is (or is related to) the kata that SumoSan performed as part of his recent grading in Scotland. I tried to YouTube it but failed.

Interesting
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby sumosan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:50 am | #85

captaintau wrote:
kaylanx wrote:

I think that this is (or is related to) the kata that SumoSan performed as part of his recent grading in Scotland. I tried to YouTube it but failed.

Interesting
 Yes that is the kata but with a few minor variations added I was taught this one about 20 odd years ago but essentially it remains unchanged.  I did a more formal style as apposed to a fluid way but its up to the performer which ever way they wish to show it .   And yes cant think why we had to do this kata , but I shall ask Bob Clark next time we meet.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby cullion » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:35 am | #86

sumosan wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I hear about all these different forms of Jujitsu and was wondering where WJJF jujitsu fell. The books and senseis all say that it doesn't fall under a particular form, in fact it tries to avoid this entirely by being an holistic art which is just jujitsu in and of itself.

Does anyone have an opinion/explanation that contrasts with this?

Any other WJJF people out there have any contribution?


When I was practicing and teaching with the WJJF we were told only that there were 725 schools of Jujitsu within Japan and that the Art itself was largely dying out.  On doing more research on the subject I have found that Jujitsu itself is based on the successful combative techniques of the warrior classes and they were not bothered too much about nicking someone Else's style if it suited their purposes.  I did have the occasion to speak directly to the Emperors bodyguard when Soke Innoue came across on a WJJF course in the 1980's and he gave a few pointers as to how the current forms of the Art came into being.  Japan was a closed of society until the Americans and Portuguese opened them up to trade. Now the background is set and we all know of WWII  many masters of martial arts were lost in that conflagration and the Americans banned the arts, but slowly the Arts reemerged with the few surviving masters who would realize for their own Art to survive they would have to combine their knowledge and to move on. The WJJF was doing the same thing to combine the knowledge of these people into a structure for the future so that the techniques could still be practiced and have relevance in todays society.   This does not in anyway explain in detail reasons and thoughts of the current masters, but might give you a small insight into the Japanese way of doing things, sometimes necessity forces change and Japan had to change to expand and so did the Martial Arts.  The WJJF became an organization to expand that knowledge but not so much in a generalized way hence when I went for the 2nd Dan grade I had to perform a Preying Mantis Kata.  Which to all intents and purposes is a Kung Fu Kata. Very strange.  But it gave me the insight that there was more to this Art than met the eye. This is only a small part of a larger explanation and there are other people out there that know more than I do so yes keep on asking as I do and you will find out.  :)


Much of this is myth.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby sumosan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:39 am | #87

cullion wrote:
sumosan wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:


Much of this is myth.


pretty good myth lol    :lol:  :P  straight from horses mouth unless the Emperors bodyguard was wrong but then that was oooohhhhh so many years ago, I've grown up a bit since then  :wink:
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Postby bomberh » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:52 am | #88

Quirk wrote:Judo is a form of jujitsu. No more, no less.


According to Kano, Judo is not a form of Jujitsu.  In his book Mind Over Muscle explains:

"There were various reasons why I chose not to use the term 'jujutsu' which described what was ordinarily practiced, and instead employed the name 'Judo'.  The main reason was that 'do' (way) is the major focus of what Kodokan teaches, whereas 'jutsu' (skill) is incidental."

That is Judo is a way of strengthening the body, educating the mind and developing rounded balanced individuals.  Jujustu was a collection of fighting techniques.

So there is a significant ideological / philosophical difference between the two.
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:08 am | #89

This is maybe true of how his opinion and ethos developed, but it is pretty common knowledge that what he originally called his style was Kano Ryu Ju-Jitsu, I need to check but I'm pretty sure that this even gets a mention in his book Kodokan.

As much as I love Judo as a sport and respect it as an art, its creation has always smelled to me like he wanted to be seen to be a bit different and   applied what we would now call marketing skills to change how people looked at the art he taught as Ju-Jitsu was getting a bit of bad press at the time.  It also looks like he used his political position to push his style in front of the others.  That said it is obvious that what he inadvertently created in the Judo we all see played at the Olympics is not the same as Ju-Jitsu, but the original version that Kano actually taught and practiced would have been very different.
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Postby Urban Fisherman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:29 pm | #90

Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain wrote:That said it is obvious that what he inadvertently created in the Judo we all see played at the Olympics is not the same as Ju-Jitsu, but the original version that Kano actually taught and practiced would have been very different.

This is probably pretty much inevitable with competitive sport, as people will be constantly pushing themselves and the rules to gain an advantage over their opponents. Other disciplines have arguably seen greater changes, e.g. development of the butterfly stroke from breaststroke in swimming.
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