Types of Jujitsu

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Postby Mad Dog » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:23 pm | #91

OK,OK! can we pause the history lesson? I know its where it all started etc.. but I think the original question (I could be wrong, I usually am!) is what styles are we all doing now.. They are all called different styles but around a core (I guess?) of waza's with some clubs/styles focusing more on one than another?

So to start at the beginning....

What are the styles around?
(based on how much you guys know about 1882 this may be a long list!!!)
and then you define the differences?

Or should I just sit quietly in a corner till you've all finished?
:wink:
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:05 am | #92

From my limited knowledge on the subject, I understand that the majority of Ju-Jitsu in the UK came from 2 original sources, those being

Yoshin Ryu, brought by Takashima Shidachi in 1892
Tenjin Shin’yo Ryu, brought by Yukio Tani in 1899

Then there was the obvious influence of Judo brought (along with other styles) by Gunji Koizumi in 1918.

At one time the WJJF and BJJA had pretty much a monopoly on the UK Ju-Jitsu scene and they claimed to practice Juko Ryu, but this is almost impossible to find any info on and made more complicated by the fact that even when they were claiming to practice Juko Ryu, they were affiliated to the Dai Nippon Hontai Yoshin Ryu.  Which makes more sense.

As most of the Big Names in UK Ju-Jitsu were at one time or another associated with the WJJF and or one of the Break away groups it is unlikely that you will find any club that has not been at least influenced by the WJJF version of Yoshin Ryu.

I think that most clubs in the UK have very limited knowledge of their actual lineage and this is because of the constant politics in Martial Arts and the need of some, to have a bigger association, and a higher grade than the next man in the line, has made people jump from one association to next, some times because they were chasing grades and other times because they didn't like the way the association was being run.

Couple this with the influences that have then arrived and been incorporated since these original teachers and the mix is very complicated.  This is partially why non-ju-jitsu artist often claim that we cannot claim the right to link what we now do with the "old" jujitsu.  I say this exactly why we can.  Ju-Jitsu is about developing the system and updating it to suit current needs. But you do this in tandem with the maintenance of the old traditions and remembering the basic elements of where your art comes from.  

The Goshin Ju-Jitsu that I practice for example could in no way be considered Judo but does have obvious Judo influences due to my sensei being a 4th dan in judo as well as 8th dan in ju-jitsu, and I still have elements of what I learned from my original sensei in the 3 or 4 years that I was with WJJF (although I've broken most of those bad habits now :wink: ), not to mention the other aspects of training that I've had over the years practicing for the odd year or two in Aiki Ju-Jitsu, and Hung Kuen Gau Gung Fu.

I believe that in the UK the strongest influence on any of our systems probably comes from the Yoshin Ryu line and if there is a core then this is most likely where you will find it in most but not in every case.
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Postby ToffeeApple » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:16 pm | #93

Of course, 2 of the largest groups here have absolutely nowt to do with them, but anyway.
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby cullion » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:36 am | #94

sumosan wrote:
cullion wrote:
sumosan wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:


Much of this is myth.


pretty good myth lol    :lol:  :P  straight from horses mouth unless the Emperors bodyguard was wrong but then that was oooohhhhh so many years ago, I've grown up a bit since then  :wink:


I'll break it down for you so you can research for yourself. 'Emporer's bodyguards' are quite capable of believing things that aren't true too.

Art itself was largely dying out.


The unarmed branches of many Koryu arts suffered substantial drops in popularity when they repeatedly lost challenges against Judoka.

On doing more research on the subject I have found that Jujitsu itself is based on the successful combative techniques of the warrior classes and they were not bothered too much about nicking someone Else's style if it suited their purposes.


Most Koryu arts post-date the era where Samurai actually fought on the battlefield regularly. Many Koryu masters are not even of the Buke cast. Even in Koryu arts, the link with people who actually fought on the battlefield is extremely tenuous, and massively diluted by people who spent generations not actually doing any fighting.

I did have the occasion to speak directly to the Emperors bodyguard when Soke Innoue came across on a WJJF course in the 1980's and he gave a few pointers as to how the current forms of the Art came into being. Japan was a closed of society until the Americans and Portuguese opened them up to trade. Now the background is set and we all know of WWII many masters of martial arts were lost in that conflagration and the Americans banned the arts, but slowly the Arts reemerged with the few surviving masters who would realize for their own Art to survive they would have to combine their knowledge and to move on.


Not really, the native japanese just started thinking 'this just doesn't work very well' when they saw what Judoka and wrestlers were doing to them.

The WJJF was doing the same thing to combine the knowledge of these people into a structure for the future so that the techniques could still be practiced and have relevance in todays society.


What Koryu lineages does the WJJF teach? It looks like Gendai Budo with a ''samurai fitness' theme to me.

This does not in anyway explain in detail reasons and thoughts of the current masters, but might give you a small insight into the Japanese way of doing things, sometimes necessity forces change and Japan had to change to expand and so did the Martial Arts.


Japanese people generally like stuff that works. They love unchoreographed pro-wrestling and Pride promotion MMA fights.

The WJJF became an organization to expand that knowledge


Which knowledge? from what Koryu?


but not so much in a generalized way hence when I went for the 2nd Dan grade I had to perform a Preying Mantis Kata.


lol.

Seriously, you're not still taken in by this crap are you?
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:39 pm | #95

ToffeeApple wrote:Of course, 2 of the largest groups here have absolutely nowt to do with them, but anyway.


If by this you include TJF, with a little bit of searching you will find that Brian Graham was once a member of WJJF and before anyone jumps on the fact that "he left because he disagreed with the type of Ju-Jitsu they taught"he was a high enough grade when he joined to know what he was getting into and that means that it would more likely be the organizational side he didn't like.  I'll ask *beep* Morris the next time I see him and see what he has to say about it.

Also Although I can't confirm it there is a post on another forum that claims to have information provided by Mathew Komp to the Australian Ju-Jitsu Association that looks like he gives a WJJF membership number as part of his Martial Arts Resume.  This would make sense as the AJJA is part of WJJF and even if he wasn't WJJF in Germany by becoming AJJA he was in Australia.  so we can add TJF to the Influenced by to WJJF Yoshin Ryu list on the highest level before we even start to consider crossovers that have happened since.  Whats the other one?
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Postby ToffeeApple » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:52 pm | #96

He did indeed join organisations over here, but afaik, prior to going to Aus he was a judo person.

As to Komp having a wjjf number, that doesn't really mean much. I've got a bjja number, as well as a jkae one. It doesn't mean shorinjikan is as a result of yoshin ryu.

I've heard a lot of contradictory things about komp, some of them second hand from people I trust. (They were probably refering to specific things though.)


Aiuchi, duh. :p
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby sumosan » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:30 pm | #97

cullion wrote:
sumosan wrote:
cullion wrote:
sumosan wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:


Much of this is myth.


pretty good myth lol    :lol:  :P  straight from horses mouth unless the Emperors bodyguard was wrong but then that was oooohhhhh so many years ago, I've grown up a bit since then  :wink:


I'll break it down for you so you can research for yourself. 'Emporer's bodyguards' are quite capable of believing things that aren't true too.

Art itself was largely dying out.


The unarmed branches of many Koryu arts suffered substantial drops in popularity when they repeatedly lost challenges against Judoka.

On doing more research on the subject I have found that Jujitsu itself is based on the successful combative techniques of the warrior classes and they were not bothered too much about nicking someone Else's style if it suited their purposes.


Most Koryu arts post-date the era where Samurai actually fought on the battlefield regularly. Many Koryu masters are not even of the Buke cast. Even in Koryu arts, the link with people who actually fought on the battlefield is extremely tenuous, and massively diluted by people who spent generations not actually doing any fighting.

I did have the occasion to speak directly to the Emperors bodyguard when Soke Innoue came across on a WJJF course in the 1980's and he gave a few pointers as to how the current forms of the Art came into being. Japan was a closed of society until the Americans and Portuguese opened them up to trade. Now the background is set and we all know of WWII many masters of martial arts were lost in that conflagration and the Americans banned the arts, but slowly the Arts reemerged with the few surviving masters who would realize for their own Art to survive they would have to combine their knowledge and to move on.


Not really, the native japanese just started thinking 'this just doesn't work very well' when they saw what Judoka and wrestlers were doing to them.

The WJJF was doing the same thing to combine the knowledge of these people into a structure for the future so that the techniques could still be practiced and have relevance in todays society.


What Koryu lineages does the WJJF teach? It looks like Gendai Budo with a ''samurai fitness' theme to me.

This does not in anyway explain in detail reasons and thoughts of the current masters, but might give you a small insight into the Japanese way of doing things, sometimes necessity forces change and Japan had to change to expand and so did the Martial Arts.


Japanese people generally like stuff that works. They love unchoreographed pro-wrestling and Pride promotion MMA fights.

The WJJF became an organization to expand that knowledge


Which knowledge? from what Koryu?


but not so much in a generalized way hence when I went for the 2nd Dan grade I had to perform a Preying Mantis Kata.


lol.

Seriously, you're not still taken in by this crap are you?
:lol:   Bullshit and crap is me middle name I ain't had so much fun in all me life long may it continue :lol:  :P  :o:  :D  hmmmmmm  wonder what I can think of next.
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:43 pm | #98

ToffeeApple wrote:He did indeed join organisations over here, but afaik, prior to going to Aus he was a judo person.

As to Komp having a wjjf number, that doesn't really mean much. I've got a bjja number, as well as a jkae one. It doesn't mean shorinjikan is as a result of yoshin ryu.

I've heard a lot of contradictory things about komp, some of them second hand from people I trust. (They were probably refering to specific things though.)


Aiuchi, duh. :p


I'm sorry I did look up Aiuchi, but all I saw was a break away group from TJF and I think  covered that one  :P

Seriously though, I'm not suggesting that TJF or Aiuchi is Yoshin Ryu in a new wrapper any more than I am say that about what I do.  What I am saying is that one of the Major influences in the system will be The WJJF version of Yoshin due to the monopoly that they held on the UK Ju-Jitsu scene.  That is of course no longer the case and other systems are now more available than ever but any instructor that trained in the 70's 80's and 90's in the UK will have learned a system that has some influence of the WJJF in it and therefore so will their students and their students students etc.  There will undoubtedly be the odd exception to the rule but that's what it is "the exception" and neither TJF or Aiuchi fall into this category.
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Postby Urban Fisherman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:29 pm | #99

Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain wrote:Seriously though, I'm not suggesting that TJF or Aiuchi is Yoshin Ryu in a new wrapper any more than I am say that about what I do.  What I am saying is that one of the Major influences in the system will be The WJJF version of Yoshin due to the monopoly that they held on the UK Ju-Jitsu scene.  That is of course no longer the case and other systems are now more available than ever but any instructor that trained in the 70's 80's and 90's in the UK will have learned a system that has some influence of the WJJF in it and therefore so will their students and their students students etc.  There will undoubtedly be the odd exception to the rule but that's what it is "the exception" and neither TJF or Aiuchi fall into this category.

At least at the levels to which I trained, TJF and WJJF were rather different, I'd be surprised if WJJF had anything like as strong an influence on TJF as the self defence element of Judo.
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Postby sumosan » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:14 am | #100

Mad Dog wrote:OK,OK! can we pause the history lesson? I know its where it all started etc.. but I think the original question (I could be wrong, I usually am!) is what styles are we all doing now.. They are all called different styles but around a core (I guess?) of waza's with some clubs/styles focusing more on one than another?

So to start at the beginning....

What are the styles around?
(based on how much you guys know about 1882 this may be a long list!!!)
and then you define the differences?

Or should I just sit quietly in a corner till you've all finished?
:wink:


I think I would have to define my style as    Juko-Ryu and Goshin Jitsu based.  Primarily Juko-Ryu for the basics then moving on to Goshin Jitsu.
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Postby Mad Dog » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:27 am | #101

Goshin is universally recognised as the self defence style of JJ.

Excuse my ignorance but what it is Joku style?
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Postby Goshin Ju-Jitsu Spain » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:54 am | #102

Juko Ryu, was the style that BJJA claimed to practice when they were part of the WJJF.  This is where a lot of the confusion over WJJF style comes from as the WJJF were members of and Patroned by the Hontai Yoshin Ryu at the same time.

Also there is little or no information on the roots of Juko Ryu outside of Japan and the closest thing that I can find is a Karate school in the US which looks nothing like WJJF Ju-Jitsu.
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Postby Mad Dog » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:04 am | #103

So what are the key principles? Stand up/Ground work/Throws/weapons defences..?
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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby Gunyo Kogusoku » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:39 pm | #104

I'm just trying to clear up a few historical points here. Nothing major.

sumosan wrote:The unarmed branches of many Koryu arts suffered substantial drops in popularity when they repeatedly lost challenges against Judoka.


Hmmm. Yes and no. A number of koryu jujutsu people actually graded in Kodokan judo and then taught it as a seperate entity to their koryu.

Case in point: Kano Jigoro, a koryu jujutsuka himself, enlisted the help of a number of top koryu jujutsuka of the day to help formulate the Judo kata for the Dai Nihon Butokukai. Look at the photo and the list of names below.

Image

Image

Leading intructors in Yoshin-ryu, Takenouchi Santo-ryu, Shiten-ryu, Miura-ryu, Fusen-ryu, Sekiguchi-ryu and Sosuishi-ryu all working together with members of the Kodokan and Kano Jigoro himself.

Also, a number of kodokan fighters were beaten by koryu jujutsuka. Aoyagi Kibei and Matsui Hyakutaro from Sosuishi-ryu both won matches against Kodokan fighters and other koryu practitioners. As did Tanabe from Fusen-ryu.

Most Koryu arts post-date the era where Samurai actually fought on the battlefield regularly. Many Koryu masters are not even of the Buke cast. Even in Koryu arts, the link with people who actually fought on the battlefield is extremely tenuous, and massively diluted by people who spent generations not actually doing any fighting.


Sometimes when there is no war on, certain skills pass over to civil situations, such as law enforcement. Takenouchi-ryu, Shibukawa-ryu and a number of other ryuha were not only famous for battlefield techniques, but also renkoho - arresting techniques.

Japanese people generally like stuff that works. They love unchoreographed pro-wrestling and Pride promotion MMA fights.


That happens in koryu too, on a small scale albeit, but that doesn't mean that you can make a gross over generalization.

Thanks for your patience.
Regards,

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Re: Types of Jujitsu

Postby sumosan » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:43 pm | #105

sumosan wrote:The unarmed branches of many Koryu arts suffered substantial drops in popularity when they repeatedly lost challenges against Judoka.


Sorry mate but twas not me who posted that comment.
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