Jitsu Chic?

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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby bombchucka » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:34 am | #31

JitsuJin wrote:...and train in dojos that simulate a nightclub, an alleyway, a dark glass strewn carpark at 2am (or any other places we're more likely to be attacked). Its certainly food for thought.

People who run car parks tend not to like having lots of broken glass lying around as it damages the tyres.  Might I also respectfully suggest that you find more salubrious places to hang around at 2am, personally I'd recommend someone else's bed in preference  :)

JitsuJin wrote:Jujitsu came out of a country where tradition and formality are huge parts of the culture, though it was not created for anything other than pragmaticism and survival. In creating a carbon copy of the practises regardless of their efficacy are we not moving away from the "spirit" of jujitsu? Is it not possible for two identical martial arts practised in two identical ways in identical settings to actually be very different and therefore effective to different degrees based upon the socio historical context? One being practical and the other being like a reinactment of centuries old practise when much more effective practises could very well be observed?


I wasn't around then but I doubt whether 1970's Britain was that different from today, hell, if you head up north the place has barely changed since the '30's... :D

Nazareth wrote:I currently (well, sporadically) train boxing and there's no air of tradition about it - it's t-shirt and shorts and trainers. However, it's an older martial art than most of the j(i)(u)-j(i)(u)tsu, Judo. Karate and TKD out there...


This has probably been posted before, but is still good.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby JitsuJin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:42 am | #32

bombchucka wrote:
JitsuJin wrote:...and train in dojos that simulate a nightclub, an alleyway, a dark glass strewn carpark at 2am (or any other places we're more likely to be attacked). Its certainly food for thought.

People who run car parks tend not to like having lots of broken glass lying around as it damages the tyres.  Might I also respectfully suggest that you find more salubrious places to hang around at 2am, personally I'd recommend someone else's bed in preference  :)



JitsuJin wrote:Jujitsu came out of a country where tradition and formality are huge parts of the culture, though it was not created for anything other than pragmaticism and survival. In creating a carbon copy of the practises regardless of their efficacy are we not moving away from the "spirit" of jujitsu? Is it not possible for two identical martial arts practised in two identical ways in identical settings to actually be very different and therefore effective to different degrees based upon the socio historical context? One being practical and the other being like a reinactment of centuries old practise when much more effective practises could very well be observed?


I wasn't around then but I doubt whether 1970's Britain was that different from today, hell, if you head up north the place has barely changed since the '30's... :D

Nazareth wrote:I currently (well, sporadically) train boxing and there's no air of tradition about it - it's t-shirt and shorts and trainers. However, it's an older martial art than most of the j(i)(u)-j(i)(u)tsu, Judo. Karate and TKD out there...


This has probably been posted before, but is still good.


Ha! I take your recommendation on board :D
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby JitsuJin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:44 am | #33

Nazareth wrote:17th century peasant's costume?

I thought gis were developed in the 19th/20th century as the equivalent of a tracksuit - a stylised kimono for designed for exercise and grappling.

Apparently, karate was practised in street clothes until the 1920s.

I remember a fun session at Pressurepoint's in street clothes back in 2005. It's interesting how your perception of someone's ability changes when you don't have an obi for handy reference ;)

I currently (well, sporadically) train boxing and there's no air of tradition about it - it's t-shirt and shorts and trainers. However, it's an older martial art than most of the j(i)(u)-j(i)(u)tsu, Judo. Karate and TKD out there...


I... guess I'm the only one practising jujitsu in a 17th century japanese peasant costume....  :oops:
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby OneDragons » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:12 am | #34

JitsuJin wrote:I... guess I'm the only one practising jujitsu in a 17th century japanese peasant costume....  :oops:



And very cool you will look I'm sure :lol:
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby Gorbash » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:37 pm | #35

JitsuJin wrote:Jujitsu came out of a country where tradition and formality are huge parts of the culture, though it was not created for anything other than pragmaticism and survival. In creating a carbon copy of the practises regardless of their efficacy are we not moving away from the "spirit" of jujitsu? Is it not possible for two identical martial arts practised in two identical ways in identical settings to actually be very different and therefore effective to different degrees based upon the socio historical context? One being practical and the other being like a reinactment of centuries old practise when much more effective practises could very well be observed?


just to clarify can you give examples of martial arts practice that you consider to be re-enactments and the ones you consider practical?
Last edited by Gorbash on Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby JitsuJin » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:27 pm | #36

Gorbash wrote:
JitsuJin wrote:Jujitsu came out of a country where tradition and formality are huge parts of the culture, though it was not created for anything other than pragmaticism and survival. In creating a carbon copy of the practises regardless of their efficacy are we not moving away from the "spirit" of jujitsu? Is it not possible for two identical martial arts practised in two identical ways in identical settings to actually be very different and therefore effective to different degrees based upon the socio historical context? One being practical and the other being like a reinactment of centuries old practise when much more effective practises could very well be observed?


just to clarify can you give examples of martial arts practice that you consider to be re-enactments and the ones you consider practical?



Well for an extreme example, the koryu styles of jujutsu that are practised with an idea to preserve the martial art in the form it was practised centuries ago, including all the techniques that are no longer applicable (unless you have a fight with a nutter in samurai armour). Much like how copying Hedrix's Voodoo Chile improv from woodstock 69' note for note may sound identical, but actually is something very very different. With the original we have an expression of a particular vibe at that point in space/time with all the other contributary factors, and with the carbon copy we have a collection of notes studiously memorised with little or no thought to how they came about or why they are the way they are. Much like how someone copying Van Gogh's famous sunflower painting is in no way even remotely similar to the man painting it himself, even if the brush strokes were identical. One would be utilising techniques appropriate to their time period, expressing some intangible cornucopia of emotion, and the other expressing nothing more than the need to replicate the physical form of great works.

It brings to mind the now cliche'd Bruce Lee quote from Enter The Dragon when he's trying to get across to the student a perhaps esoteric principle of kung fu/ma, in pointing to the moon; "Don't look at the finger or you miss all that heavenly glory". In relation to jujitsu (in this case), the "finger" would be the actual practises, techniques and whatnot, and the "moon/heavenly glory" would be the rationale and principles that led to their conception. With this in mind, koryu styles of jujutsu and any leftovers in non traditional styles could perhaps be considered to be akin to re-enactments of historical events, much like those people who enjoy re-enacting the civil war. A lot of finger fetishists :D

Another more specific example might be the use of Japenese terms to describe techniques. In this case the "finger" would be the fact that the terms are in Japanese. The terms were only in the native language of those learning jujitsu at the time. I doubt they would have found much value in referring to them in a foreign language. So why do we?

Many little things, though at the end of the day I think you'd be hard pressed in 2011 to find an entire jujitsu class full of people studying it with only effective self defense in mind. For many now its a social thing, some do it because they love the tradition aspect, and of course some just want to be able to defend themselves. For many it may be a mix of all these and more. The important thing (it has been said) is that you enjoy it whatever your reasons*.



*That said, TKD is the martial art enjoyed by the most people in the US, though due to how it tends to be taught I doubt many of them could fight their way out of a paper bag.
Last edited by JitsuJin on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby rne02 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:02 pm | #37

Most of the strangle/throttle defenses I practice, I consider to be there purely to preserve the style/system.  I fully understand why they were developed (to use against armour wearing opponents) but there are much more practicle defenses I believe we should be using now that our attackers don't wear armour.

Our defense against a rear two handed strangle is particulalry farcial, and no one will ever be able to convince me that it is in anyway practical for the street.

It is a major bug-bear of mine, but I don't write the grading sheets so I have to grin and bear it.  I prefer to perform my own substitute techniques in Randori though, and I don't get told off :-)
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby Gorbash » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:38 pm | #38

JitsuJin wrote:the koryu styles of jujutsu that are practised with an idea to preserve the martial art in the form it was practised centuries ago, including all the techniques that are no longer applicable (unless you have a fight with a nutter in samurai armour)


Interesting... is this your opinion of what you believe koryu to be or is it an actual fact?
I find the term re-enactment perplexing
is koryu training really play acting or are the individuals who choose a koryu way training and developing skills much like those in modern combat arts.

JitsuJin wrote:another more specific example might be the use of Japenese terms to describe techniques. In this case the "finger" would be the fact that the terms are in Japanese. The terms were only in the native language of those learning jujitsu at the time. I doubt they would have found much value in referring to them in a foreign language. So why do we?

are you saying it's wrong to use japanese terms in the UK for Budo.
I dont have any problems with Japanese based arts that choose to use or not use japanese terms i see pros and cons either way.

JitsuJin wrote:Many little things, though at the end of the day I think you'd be hard pressed in 2011 to find an entire jujitsu class full of people studying it with only effective self defense in mind. For many now its a social thing, some do it because they love the tradition aspect, and of course some just want to be able to defend themselves. For many it may be a mix of all these and more. The important thing (it has been said) is that you enjoy it whatever your reasons*.

what's the point you're trying to get across?
are you saying people are training for the wrong reasons?
Last edited by Gorbash on Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby JitsuJin » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:29 am | #39

Gorbash wrote:
JitsuJin wrote:the koryu styles of jujutsu that are practised with an idea to preserve the martial art in the form it was practised centuries ago, including all the techniques that are no longer applicable (unless you have a fight with a nutter in samurai armour)


Interesting... is this your opinion of what you believe koryu to be or is it an actual fact?
I find the term re-enactment perplexing
is koryu training really play acting or are the individuals who choose a koryu way training and developing skills much like those in modern combat arts.


Read rne02s' post. I do believe however that if there exists in a martial art, things which do not directly serve some practical function (and not merely historical/nostalgic value) that there should be a point at which it can no longer be called a martial art. Not that I doubt a selection of techniques found in koryu jujutsu styles will be useful for the modern day, it just appears that much of it isn't in some cases. Again I refer you to rne02s' post, he/she is obviously concerned with the pragmaticism and applicability of what they are learning for a real life situation, so obviously there are people who train in koryu with an idea to train for effective self defense. Whether rne02 was aware of the differences between koryu jujitsu and non traditional jujitsu when they took it up, or whether they even knew why to care about those differences, I'm not sure. Again, everyone has different reasons for training.

"Historical reenactment is an activity in which participants recreate some aspects of a historical event or period. It may be a narrowly-defined time period, such as a specific war or other event, or it may be more broadly defined. " - there ya go :)

JitsuJin wrote:another more specific example might be the use of Japenese terms to describe techniques. In this case the "finger" would be the fact that the terms are in Japanese. The terms were only in the native language of those learning jujitsu at the time. I doubt they would have found much value in referring to them in a foreign language. So why do we?


Gorbash wrote:are you saying it's wrong to use japanese terms in the UK for Budo.
I dont have any problems with Japanese based arts that choose to use or not use japanese terms i see pros and cons either way.


Wrong is not a word I have used, and for good reason. Of course, the choice to use japanese or english terms has no bearing on the efficacy of the system in question. It just makes things a little simpler/more complicated. For example recently we learned the sweeping loin throw. Sensei told us it was just an extension of the hip throw. If he had said  "ok class, now we're going to learn harai goshi, its just an extension of the hip throw" I'd have that much less information to go on, simply because my english is better than my japanese due to me living in this part of the world. That said I'm pretty sure you could rename all of the techniques allocating a series of high pitched squeeks and squeels to each of them and learn them just as well. Or even name them after dead actors of the 1940s. Though you may still end up going "Ok, now we're going to do a throw called the Mickey Rooney. Its an extension of the hip throw where you sweep the loin with your leg. Don't ask me why its not called the sweep the loin, or loin sweep or sweeping loin." Of course there are also some pros, though whether they are equal to the cons is something to consider.

JitsuJin wrote:Many little things, though at the end of the day I think you'd be hard pressed in 2011 to find an entire jujitsu class full of people studying it with only effective self defense in mind. For many now its a social thing, some do it because they love the tradition aspect, and of course some just want to be able to defend themselves. For many it may be a mix of all these and more. The important thing (it has been said) is that you enjoy it whatever your reasons*.


Gorbash wrote:what's the point you're trying to get across?
are you saying people are training for the wrong reasons?


My point here is that, while I'm harping on about copying ancient practises step for step not being in the "spirit of jujitsu", as the world has changed, so have the people. People now learn martial arts for more than just the reason which the idea was initially conceived. Again, I didnt use the word "wrong", because I couldnt' possibly have. When people aim to get a million and one different things out of martial arts, I couldnt very well tell them they're doing ma for the "wrong" reasons. If it gets you fit and out the house, great! If it gives you confidence and takes you out of your shell, awesome! If it simply gives you something to do, then fantastic! This is why its different learning jujitsu now than it was back then. Back then your life may have depended on it. Now, the same applies to a much lower percentage of people who take it up. I think its safe to say that the majority of people who take up martial arts today, do so on the grounds that they think they would enjoy it.
Last edited by JitsuJin on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:36 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby Gorbash » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:39 pm | #40

JitsuJin wrote:Read rne02s' post. I do believe however that if there exists in a martial art, things which do not directly serve some practical function (and not merely historical/nostalgic value) that there should be a point at which it can no longer be called a martial art. Not that I doubt a selection of techniques found in koryu jujutsu styles will be useful for the modern day, it just appears that much of it isn't in some cases. Again I refer you to rne02s' post, he/she is obviously concerned with the pragmaticism and applicability of what they are learning for a real life situation, so obviously there are people who train in koryu with an idea to train for effective self defense. Whether rne02 was aware of the differences between koryu jujitsu and non traditional jujitsu when they took it up, or whether they even knew why to care about those differences, I'm not sure. Again, everyone has different reasons for training.


I have read rne02s' post and his previous thread on the matter it just seems like you were echoing  what he said regarding
JitsuJin wrote:the koryu styles of jujutsu that are practised with an idea to preserve the martial art in the form it was practised centuries ago, including all the techniques that are no longer applicable (unless you have a fight with a nutter in samurai armour)


hence my question, is that fact or your opinion.

if it's fact, i just feel you need to back it up.
If it's your opinion, i would like to know your experience or level of expertise in koryu that allows you to form this judgement.

Also regarding reenactment (thanks but i know what it means) i was wondering how you justify comparing it to koryu... i personally don't see the connection.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby Splinter » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:18 pm | #41

Daftbugger wrote:Are you sure it wasn't a TKD dobok? It tends to be TKD people who parade around in their doboks outside training.

Nah Ive seen loads of karate people doing it too - including an instructor - iknew this becauise it said so on his gi.

he was stopped inside  tesco by some woman asking about classes for her son, when they walked away he reid to them, couldnt help laughing.

for me gi is only worn at dojo, if I need to go out =side before / after training it will at least get a coat over it.  and as Im TJF the haks just add to public onfusion.  plus I odnt wnat public smells like petrol / cigarettes / and anything else on my training gi.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby captaintau » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:11 pm | #42

Splinter wrote:
Daftbugger wrote:Are you sure it wasn't a TKD dobok? It tends to be TKD people who parade around in their doboks outside training.

Nah Ive seen loads of karate people doing it too - including an instructor - iknew this becauise it said so on his gi.

Has anyone seen the Taekwondo doboks with the "master" brand on the sleeve  :lol:
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby tiggersdontclimbtrees » Tue May 10, 2011 10:58 am | #43

I saw a lady putting out her bin in a t-shirt and haks one morning - utterly confused me as I understand they're a bit of a pain to put on, wouldn't have thought they'd be the 'go-to' item of clothing for such an early morning chore!
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby Daftbugger » Tue May 10, 2011 1:25 pm | #44

Are you sure they were haks? I have seem some very hakama like trousers on sale.
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Re: Jitsu Chic?

Postby JitsuJin » Tue May 10, 2011 2:00 pm | #45

You know, I'm still not sure how I feel about Haks in jujitsu. I'd only actually seen that very recently when I saw pics and clips of TJF clubs. I thought it was only Aikido that did that. I think I'd wear them for Aikido, but feel wierd wearing them for jujitsu. I think thats just the association in my mind between Haks and Aikido. They do make the flowing Aikido motions look pretty though...
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