Aikijujutsu!

Have a jitsu related question? Get a jitsu related answer here.

Moderator: Moderators

Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:34 am | #1

As you may have guessed from the title, tonight I went to my local Aikido club to learn Aikijujutsu. All the higher grades were really friendly, which was cool. One or two of the lower grades that I spoke to were also nice. It was a two hour session though some people are there half an hour earlier for extra practise. There were two senseis, one 6th dan, one 5th dan, both very very capable. There were quite a few students and interestingly there were a dozen or so white belts/no gis, 5 or so black belts, and just two coloured belts. This is vastly different from my club, as while there are about a dozen white belts at the moment (who seemed to have fallen out of the sky), there are quite a few kyu grades, and just one black belt other than Sensei. Though both are refered to as Sensei and act in that capacity, which brings me to another point of interest. The black belts at the Aikijujutsu club were not referred to as Sensei, and not seen as such. They were merely advanced students. I can't say much about their level, having only been to one class.

The class started with a rather complex reiing sequence that includeded clapping, and then a nice vigorous warm up. There were no pushups or anything but it did the job. Following that were some simple breakfalls, and then some exercises with bokken, which was a first for me and quite a work out for the wrists, forearms and shoulders. Later on we moved onto some techniques and the sword work made sense, as all the movements were based on the movement of the sword. This will take a bit of getting used to as the movements are alien to me. I am however getting a bokken next week, so I expect to need new lampshades and other things before long, hehe.

There was a lot of emphasis on movement and positioning, so I think I'll get a lot out of studying this style. I look forward to my next session :)
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby nry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:41 am | #2

Sword work is the basis of many of the older JJ styles, certainly something highlighted in the style I'm training with at the moment.  If it's anything like Motoha, then I concur, the movements in many ways feel alien to 'modern' JJ's which use Judo-style throws :)
User avatar
nry Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Carlisle
Karma: 9

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby captaintau » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:38 am | #3

JitsuJin wrote:some exercises with bokken, which was a first for me and quite a work out for the wrists, forearms and shoulders. Later on we moved onto some techniques and the sword work made sense, as all the movements were based on the movement of the sword. This will take a bit of getting used to as the movements are alien to me.


Aikido is the Art of the Sword without a Sword. The founder of Aikido was a Kenjitsu master along with his studies in Aikijitsu (through the Daito Ryu school) Judo and other other things. Many unarmed techniques are actually sword techniques. I suspect that it's the same in the Daito Ryu, who taught Aiki-jitsu, Aiki-Jujitsu and Aiki no Jitsu. If your dojo is descended from that line then there you go. Spirit Combat's Aiki-Jujitsu is essentially modern (20th century) Jujitsu with a foundation in Aikido. Soke Brian doesn't teach Bokken any more but I do to all my Black Belt (Shodan Ho and above in this case) students. I have to grade with Bokken in Ki-Aikido.
User avatar
captaintau Male
Genre Definer
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Worcester
Karma: 41

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:53 pm | #4

Ah interesting. I remember reading about Ueshiba being pretty handy with a sword. I'm unsure if its anything like Motoha. The style is Butoku Ryu Aikijujutsu, also a recent style but founded by Akira Fujimori who was awarded his 7th Dan directly from the Ueshiba family in recognition of his style

http://aikido.uwamartialartsclub.org/about/instructors/

There are only a few clubs in the world practising this style, and he visits every couple of years to teach and train for a few days.

The techniques we covered included Tenchinage? Heaven and earth throw is what they said it was, and a couple of other things, as well as the basics of movement. Apparantly my tenchinage was good, but it felt rather awkward as the movements are so much more subtle. That was pretty much the case with most of what I was taught that day. It may be a by product of the fact that the techniques are "not meant to be felt by the attacker". With any luck I can train again this weekend :)
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby captaintau » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:09 pm | #5

JitsuJin wrote:The techniques we covered included Tenchinage? Heaven and earth throw

That's exactly what tenchinage is. Heaven to Earth throw.

Recommended reading:
The Dynamic Sphere
Aikijitsu and Taijitsu Movement Relationships
Daito Ryu
User avatar
captaintau Male
Genre Definer
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Worcester
Karma: 41

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:23 am | #6

captaintau wrote:
JitsuJin wrote:The techniques we covered included Tenchinage? Heaven and earth throw

That's exactly what tenchinage is. Heaven to Earth throw.

Recommended reading:
The Dynamic Sphere
Aikijitsu and Taijitsu Movement Relationships
Daito Ryu


Thanks for the reading list, I'll have to have a look :)
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:08 pm | #7

Sooo... second session. I was eager to go because I felt I didn't really have any sense or impression of the style after my first session. Perhaps due to me feeling the techniques were alien. Anyway off I went, and it was really quite good. The instructors really know their stuff, and I had my questions answered regarding the nature of the style vs the name of the style. We did weapon work again, this time including a bo or jo staff to get the footwork down for tenchinage.

It turns out I had only the faintest of vague impressions of the technique after last time, as this session seemed to reveal a whole other dimension. Not unlike the citizens of Flatlands being presented with a pineapple. I feel I understand it much better, though its definately more complicated than it seems. Its a complexity that makes youtube and anything other than direct instruction by a senior dan seem as pointless as spherical solar powered torch. In light of that I'll probably return next week to find that the pineapple has consciousness. We did some other techniques. I think Ikkyu or something was one of them. There didn't seem to be much concern about the fact I had never done any of the techniques before, but fortunately there were also some helpful senior grades (dan grades). Its funny how a technique is easier once someone actually takes the time to show you. I met some new people there today, nice people, enthusiastic people, and those as yet unclassified.

I'm really quite impressed with the style though its making me ask some serious questions of the style I currently practise and hold a grade in. The stuff works very well, and there is so much detail in the techniques. I can see the value in both though, especially as in my "main" jujitsu we get to spar and grapple, which is always good. I have a lot to practise (mainly footwork) for my next session, and I'm very much looking forward to it (the session, and also the practise).
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby Jitsonic » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:19 pm | #8

A solar powered torch is NOT pointless...  I have one, and found it VERY useful while I was in Kenya on Safari a couple of years ago.

:P
Jitsonic
Guest
Guest
 

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby nry » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:32 pm | #9

I went through a similar self-questioning phase with Motoha.  Western/modern JJ is really nothing like the older historical stuff, and I agree completely on the subtlety of techniques - what I do know is that subtlety does not equal fancy and useless, often quite the opposite.  Keep us updated if you keep training with these people, I for one will be interested to see how your thoughts and comparisons develop!
User avatar
nry Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Carlisle
Karma: 9

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:49 pm | #10

nry wrote:I went through a similar self-questioning phase with Motoha.  Western/modern JJ is really nothing like the older historical stuff, and I agree completely on the subtlety of techniques - what I do know is that subtlety does not equal fancy and useless, often quite the opposite.  Keep us updated if you keep training with these people, I for one will be interested to see how your thoughts and comparisons develop!


I definately see a difference. This particular style however, has more in common with Aikido than it does with Jujutsu, despite being an Aikijujutsu style. I was a little confused with why the instructor said its Aikijujutsu BUT its really Aikido, so I brought it up casually to the dan grade I was doing a kneeling technique with. He mentioned something about there being some confusion between the styles, and the fact that in the west and even in Japan very few people actually practise real Aikijujutsu. The head instructor overheard and came over to clarify. I think basically what she said was that its in the softness of the techniques, and the underlying principles. So it would seem that the techniques are Aikijujutsu, but the softness of the techniques and the principles are Aikido. Apparantly the founder of our style thought that too many schools had gotten away from their roots, and so developed this style. The instructor put a lot of emphasis on the principles having to remain the same. I have to make a note to myself to not bring that up again.

Also, interestingly at this club the dress code is quite relaxed. I've seen blue gis, black gis, white gis, and white sport karate gis (the overhead v neck ones). The senior grades were wearing white or blue gis but I think thats just chance as opposed to regulation. I've only heard of one rule regarding dress though, and thats the colour of your hakama, as only certain people (I think perhaps the head instructors) can wear certain coloured hakamas. Other than that detail, the wearing of hakamas (what's plural for hakama? Is it hakama?) does not seem to be a status symbol at all, as I was informed by a nidan that you can wear them from day one, and that she wore hers from 4th kyu or something. That said I've only observed dan grades wearing them. In contrast to the previous session, there were a few more kyu grades at Sundays session, as some only train one day a week, and others have varying schedules etc.

From what I've heard, I can probably expect to have my first grading in three months or so. I'm wondering whether or not I'd be allowed to continue wearing my white belt afterwards though. I'll keep you updated as my experience continues :)
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby nry » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:16 pm | #11

Hakama for dan grades only is a 'modern' thing...

The koryu JJ styles didn't have coloured belts, they were added 'later' for us who can't cope without obvious progression ;)

Softness isn't just something from aikido, the koryu stuff looks and feels (for the most part) soft and fluffy until you look at the application of it outside of kata/practice.  At that stage some of it gets rather less than soft and fluffy - at least for uke :)
User avatar
nry Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Carlisle
Karma: 9

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby captaintau » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:01 pm | #12

JitsuJin, thanks for that. It does seem similar to the Aiki-Jujitsu that I do, at least in principle. Maybe more Aikido than mine. I strongly encourage you to buy the book on the Daito Ryu as it will make things much more clear. It certainly seems that whereas yours is fairly modern style it has indeed kept to it's roots, where we haven't.


JitsuJin wrote: I was doing a kneeling technique

Suwari waza. Not something we do in my Aiki-Jujitsu, but I've done it for grading in Aikido. You'll find it in the Judo kata at Dan grade and in most Koryu styles.


JitsuJin wrote: I've only heard of one rule regarding dress though, and thats the colour of your hakama, as only certain people (I think perhaps the head instructors) can wear certain coloured hakamas. Other than that detail, the wearing of hakamas (what's plural for hakama? Is it hakama?) does not seem to be a status symbol at all, as I was informed by a nidan that you can wear them from day one, and that she wore hers from 4th kyu or something. That said I've only observed dan grades wearing them.

I've emboldened the female reference for a reason. I remain receptive to correction on this, but I'll explain my understanding. In most Koryu where there were no Kyu grades the hakama was for any grade. With the advent of the Kyudan system it became common for it be only for yudansha (Dan grades). That said, because the Keikogi is considered underwear ladies of any grade are allowed to wear them. I do wonder how much of this is "tradition" or how much is acquired tradition for want of a better phrase in the west. What's happened to Gunyo Kogusoku as he could answer much of this?

In the west we usually make the plural of Japanese words the same as we do English so hakama becomes "hakamas" but it is correctly "hakama" with a slightly different character.
User avatar
captaintau Male
Genre Definer
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Worcester
Karma: 41

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:03 pm | #13

captaintau wrote:JitsuJin, thanks for that. It does seem similar to the Aiki-Jujitsu that I do, at least in principle. Maybe more Aikido than mine. I strongly encourage you to buy the book on the Daito Ryu as it will make things much more clear. It certainly seems that whereas yours is fairly modern style it has indeed kept to it's roots, where we haven't.


JitsuJin wrote: I was doing a kneeling technique

Suwari waza. Not something we do in my Aiki-Jujitsu, but I've done it for grading in Aikido. You'll find it in the Judo kata at Dan grade and in most Koryu styles.


JitsuJin wrote: I've only heard of one rule regarding dress though, and thats the colour of your hakama, as only certain people (I think perhaps the head instructors) can wear certain coloured hakamas. Other than that detail, the wearing of hakamas (what's plural for hakama? Is it hakama?) does not seem to be a status symbol at all, as I was informed by a nidan that you can wear them from day one, and that she wore hers from 4th kyu or something. That said I've only observed dan grades wearing them.

I've emboldened the female reference for a reason. I remain receptive to correction on this, but I'll explain my understanding. In most Koryu where there were no Kyu grades the hakama was for any grade. With the advent of the Kyudan system it became common for it be only for yudansha (Dan grades). That said, because the Keikogi is considered underwear ladies of any grade are allowed to wear them. I do wonder how much of this is "tradition" or how much is acquired tradition for want of a better phrase in the west. What's happened to Gunyo Kogusoku as he could answer much of this?

In the west we usually make the plural of Japanese words the same as we do English so hakama becomes "hakamas" but it is correctly "hakama" with a slightly different character.


Many interesting points, thankyou. I'll definately check out that book when I can.
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:45 pm | #14

Last night was my third session, and like the previous two it was both enjoyable and insightful. After the warm up and bokken exercises during which I got to use my shiny new bokken that I had Sensei order for me, We did some tai sabaki (no one has thought to explain to me what this is, though fortunately I already had some idea thanks to the forum), namely irimi. It seemed fairly simple and of clear practical value. Later we covered irimi nage. This "version" of irimi nage was done from a two handed wrist grab (on one wrist) and the throw part of the technique is executed with a kind of forwards rocking motion that while typing this I just realised comes from the movement we do with the bokken during the bokken exercises. I think. Ha.. anyway, at the time I found it a little odd, as all the power had to come from the legs and sinking low, and apparantly men have a tendency to become tense in the arms and shoulders. I definately noticed this when trying the technique, and had to work on it. In this style apparantly all the power comes from the legs. A helpful dan grade I was training with said that she imagines holding a small hamster in her hand, and reasoned that its impossible (or at least difficult) to become tense in the arms and shoulders if your hands are relaxed.... it kind of worked for me, but I'll benefit from more practise.

Some time after that we were shown a koto gaeshi (from irimi) into a ground control technique. Aside from the breakfalling I think this was the first instance where my limited jujitsu skills were of use, as I was familliar with both the lock and the second part of the ground control. The koto gaeshi in this style though is applied slightly differently in that we're not trying to make anyone flip through the air. Sensei explained that in real life the person on the receiving end won't flip through the air, but simply get mad that their arm is about to break and try to punch you with the other one. Makes sense. So this version is much more 'vertical' for want of a better term, as the attacker simply drops to the mat very quickly to avoid the pain. The ground control involved a kind of shoulder lock with the legs (simply by positioning) and then using my ankle to pivot uke's arm off so he'd roll onto his front. I picked up a couple of very useful pointers on this technique that I'd either not been shown in my other style, or hadn't taken in/remembered. Still, the "you've done this before have'nt you?" will never cease to make me smile. :)

Next up was a slightly more complicated technique that I sucked horribly at, without exception, until the exact moment Sensei told me what it actually was. It was a koto gaeshi blending into tenchinage. So there I was sort of walking into the person uncertainly for the second part of the technique as Sensei had ommitted (or I'd simply not heard her mention) that the second part was tenchinage  :? . And I can do tenchinage!!! Oh well  :roll: . There were a couple of other techniques, including one slightly flashy one that was used to demonstrate the available options when moving. The no handed tenchinage in the previous session should have been enough to tell me that aikido/aikijujutsu/this style is primarily movement based. Also the little nugget of "if in doubt, sink. Sink with all techniques". The more I learn, the more I like this style. Hopefully I'll get to train again on Sunday but it doesn't seem likely as I've promised someone I'd go to a gig, long before my Sundays became this awesome :)
Last edited by JitsuJin on Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Re: Aikijujutsu!

Postby JitsuJin » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:08 pm | #15

Oh, I forgot to mention that in this session and previous sessions I witnessed randori. The randori was done by the higher grades (dan grades generally, but twice by kyu grades) and used by Sensei to explain some key points about something. It was definately Aikido randori, though no one was throwing themselves through the air or simply presenting themselves to be "Aikido'd".
JitsuJin Male
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 3

Next

Return to General Jitsu Discussions

Signup

cron