The use of the word 'Traditional'?

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Re: The use of the word 'Traditional'?

Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:54 pm | #16

really? I've obviously seen different koryu... I'm not saying that there isn't some useful stuff, but can't really agree with the statement 'more useful application in Koryu than in any modern style'
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Re: The use of the word 'Traditional'?

Postby nry » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:25 pm | #17

I shall re-phrase then: I have seen more useful stuff in the Koryu I train in compared to the other styles I've trained in before and many I've seen/watched in person.

Unless you have the right teacher, with the right understanding of the true application (with sufficient background to understand how things work in reality), I can fully understand why many think Koryu is nothing more than a bunch of boring kata with no real use.

I will be totally honest - it took me a good year of training with MotoHa before I began to 'get it' from that perspective - perhaps because you need a reasonable grounding in the basic ideas before that angle is taught.
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Re: The use of the word 'Traditional'?

Postby BrassMan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:06 am | #18

I'm not coming up to Carisle for a goosie, so I'll take your word for it. That said, the HEMA I've seen has excellent training methods and probably wouldn't take much tweaking to make something effective, but that's not why anyone I know does it.
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Re: The use of the word 'Traditional'?

Postby nry » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:48 am | #19

BrassMan wrote:I'm not coming up to Carisle for a goosie, so I'll take your word for it. That said, the HEMA I've seen has excellent training methods and probably wouldn't take much tweaking to make something effective, but that's not why anyone I know does it.


I'd suggest that any MA that has true roots to actual martial use is as valid, if practiced 'correctly', as any 'modern' MA - considering many MA's are chucked around by people with little to no real world use, perhaps that raises further questions on what is more valid for self defence - battlefield tested stuff or modern stuff which people say is valid but has nothing but people's thoughts and ideas to go on for reasoning...
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Re: The use of the word 'Traditional'?

Postby Urban Fisherman » Fri May 03, 2013 11:24 am | #20

nry wrote:I'd suggest that any MA that has true roots to actual martial use is as valid, if practiced 'correctly', as any 'modern' MA - considering many MA's are chucked around by people with little to no real world use, perhaps that raises further questions on what is more valid for self defence - battlefield tested stuff or modern stuff which people say is valid but has nothing but people's thoughts and ideas to go on for reasoning...

The final major "battlefield test" of samurai martial techniques was the Satsuma rebellion, which didn't go very well for the Samurai:

"The final blow to conservative samurai came in the 1877 Satsuma rebellion, when the government's newly drafted army, trained in European infantry techniques and armed with modern Western guns, defeated the last resistance of the traditional samurai warriors. With the exception of these few samurai outbreaks, Japan's domestic transformation proceeded with remarkable speed, energy, and the cooperation of the people. This phenomenon is one of the major characteristics of Japan's modern history."
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/j ... _meiji.htm

I question the utility of such "battlefield testing" for the scenarios that people worry about for self defence. The effectiveness of groups of people is central to winning on the battlefield, whereas self defence is by definition about a single person.

I also wonder how much of what samurai learnt in the distinct past from the battlefield has been transmitted to the present day, much of it would be implicit knowledge, and I suspect much of what was transmitted would be forgot or mutate over the years.

I think you have to test stuff for yourself regardless of whether it was invented 2 or 200 years ago.
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