Householder Cases

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Householder Cases

Postby rne02 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:45 pm | #1

For those of you in the UK, you may be interested to know that the Crown Prosecution Service have recently updated their Self Defence guidelines to reflect the recent law change regarding what they term as Householder Cases.

This is to reflect that fact that you will no longer be prosecuted for using disproportionate force in your own home, were as before the change you were only allowed to use reasonable force.  Of course it's not straight forward so you will need to read it to get he full jist.
If you can't do it with a fag or a shot glass in your other hand, it's not a proper judo hold.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby nry » Wed May 15, 2013 2:55 pm | #3

Similar to self defence law changes, whereby the ability to judge what is reasonable is impaired by the situation where you may need to use it.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby thauma » Thu May 16, 2013 9:55 am | #4

as with all these things, the wording isn't necessarily very understandable to the layman, however if I read this right then it does seem like a step in the right direction for the householder / victim. They still need to consider the position for the victim who isn't at home, although you can argue that you can remove yourself from a situation outside, but not so easily when at home
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby nry » Thu May 16, 2013 11:16 am | #5

Do the 'normal' self defence laws not cover you outside of the home?  They cover defence of property etc...
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby rne02 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:15 pm | #6

nry wrote:Do the 'normal' self defence laws not cover you outside of the home?  They cover defence of property etc...

You were only allowed to use reasonable force either inside or outside of the home.  If you used disproportionate force, then you were prosecuted.

Since the law changed last month however, you are still only allowed to use reasonable force outside the home, but if you use disproportionate force inside your home you will no longer be prosecuted.  Inside your home you will now only be prosecuted if you use grossly disproportionate force.
If you can't do it with a fag or a shot glass in your other hand, it's not a proper judo hold.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby captaintau » Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 pm | #7

rne02 wrote:
nry wrote:Do the 'normal' self defence laws not cover you outside of the home?  They cover defence of property etc...

You were only allowed to use reasonable force either inside or outside of the home.  If you used disproportionate force, then you were prosecuted.

Since the law changed last month however, you are still only allowed to use reasonable force outside the home, but if you use disproportionate force inside your home you will no longer be prosecuted.  Inside your home you will now only be prosecuted if you use grossly disproportionate force.


So just as we start to grasp "reasonable" (based on necessity and proportion / the actions of a normal person in the circumstance etc) now we have to content with "grossly?"  :(
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby nry » Thu May 16, 2013 12:44 pm | #8

I'm fairly sure there has been recent-ish ruling on the understanding of reasonable force - as I mentioned above, I believe it accounts for the fact that in a self defence situation, the stress to the defender makes it almost, if not completely, impossible to judge what is reasonable.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby rne02 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:57 pm | #9

nry wrote:I'm fairly sure there has been recent-ish ruling on the understanding of reasonable force - as I mentioned above, I believe it accounts for the fact that in a self defence situation, the stress to the defender makes it almost, if not completely, impossible to judge what is reasonable.

The law recognises that under the stress of a situation you cannot be expected to "weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action".

It is quite difficult to get prosecuted in England & Wales for defending yourself.  You do have to go quite obviously over the top. (eg Tony Martin/Munir Hussain).
If you can't do it with a fag or a shot glass in your other hand, it's not a proper judo hold.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby captaintau » Thu May 16, 2013 3:44 pm | #10

In addition, it is thought that most people that are prosecuted for "self defence" are found guilty in court not because of what actually happened, but because of what they said or did whilst in police custody. I know one group that covers giving statements as part of their self protection training for just this reason.
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Re: Householder Cases

Postby thauma » Thu May 16, 2013 4:18 pm | #11

captaintau wrote:In addition, it is thought that most people that are prosecuted for "self defence" are found guilty in court not because of what actually happened, but because of what they said or did whilst in police custody. I know one group that covers giving statements as part of their self protection training for just this reason.



totally agree - and the old adage of 2 ears and 1 mount springs to mind. (i.e. listen more than you speak)

I guess the tendency is for the innocent person is to give as much information as possible to assist the police, when in fact they are only hindering themselves.
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