O Garuma - someone convince me this isn't pointless...

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Postby GingerNinja » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:05 pm | #31

nao wrote: I'm convinced, if I can get one hand on the ground before any other part of my body, that will be half the fall broken.


... and quite possibly your wrist? Don't reach down, dude!

Marianne's going tonight. Ask her to throw you a few times. Or Will, if he's there - he throws hard but well.

You are going to have about 7 instructors there tonight. :)

(JEALOUS)
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Postby nao » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:35 pm | #32

Thanks GN - will definitely request some tuition from Marianne and Will - never been thrown by Will before, I always end up with Dan for some reason (not that I'm complaining - he's very good IMO!)

Re: reaching down - I've been watching ukemi videos A LOT recently and I'd say 80% of the falls from nage/kuzushi-waza are broken with a leading arm. To me (and I could definitely be wrong!) I looks like a very quick transition from palm to wrist to underside of forearm to whole arm to shoulder - followed by the rest of the body. There's a characteristic 'palm on mat' slap sound that precedes the thump of the rest of the body. No?!

7 Sensei Knife-fest tonight :P Methinks, possibly a V? :o:
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Postby Goober » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:50 pm | #33

nao wrote:Re: reaching down - I've been watching ukemi videos A LOT recently and I'd say 80% of the falls from nage/kuzushi-waza are broken with a leading arm. To me (and I could definitely be wrong!) I looks like a very quick transition from palm to wrist to underside of forearm to whole arm to shoulder - followed by the rest of the body. There's a characteristic 'palm on mat' slap sound that precedes the thump of the rest of the body. No?!


no. It should be as close to similtaneous as humanly possible.
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Postby Splinter » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:36 pm | #34

dougal wrote:I think it's just because I'm used to trying to throw BJJ types, who hate being thrown and don't stand straight like a plank and do a nice, crisp breakfall form me. Gits.

I do miss the satisfying 'smack!' of a clean throw, during my TJF days...

No I think its a different "style" of the throw.
ok ignore the deidedly unusal set up and entry but imagine hes doing this against a big swinging hook
http://www.fightauthority.com/watch.php?ytv=-wnriSRY1T4

My ogaruma is done,as I said with a taste of kukinage.
Uki devlivers said haymaker, i move to stand to his left direct and draw his punch around while also guiding his upper body with my right hand in his armpit. (NB my r arm is as straight as I can acheive, as he bends towards the ground 90weight forwards) my r leg drives up and through.  Im really not close enough in to follow to the ground IF i get things to go my way
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Postby kunoichi » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:08 am | #35

GingerNinja wrote:Noooo! You're good! Don't catch 'the suck' from me! (Have you noticed I cling on when thrown? THat's a REALLY bad habit you don't want to pick up that comes from fear of impacting with the ground...


I've never understood why this is a bad thing. I did it quite shamelessly when I was in jitsu and never felt inclined to apologised for it. When you throw someone for real they are probably going to hold on as that is a natural way to decrease the impact of the fall. So tori had better be able to deal with it IMO.

nao: If your breakfalling _always_ hurts then it's quite possible it's your breathing. MY TIP: When about to breakfall try saying `Ooohssssss' (so that you are hissing at the point of impact). This will give you perfect breathing without having to think to much. The downside is that it makes you look a bit special. But you shouldn't care about that. - I don't!

If you get your breathing sorted you might find that it gives you the confidence to get all your limbs in place and improve the rest of your falling with it.
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Postby kunoichi » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:23 am | #36

Splinter wrote:No I think its a different "style" of the throw.
ok ignore the deidedly unusal set up and entry but imagine hes doing this against a big swinging hook
http://www.fightauthority.com/watch.php?ytv=-wnriSRY1T4


If tori in that video had gone to the ground with the throw then he could easily have taken kazuri kesa gatame. But instead he stay on his feet and abandons the grip he had with his right hand. (I'm assuming it was a right handed throw. - Too lazy to replay it.)
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Postby Pocahontas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:55 am | #37

kunoichi wrote:
GingerNinja wrote:Noooo! You're good! Don't catch 'the suck' from me! (Have you noticed I cling on when thrown? THat's a REALLY bad habit you don't want to pick up that comes from fear of impacting with the ground...


I've never understood why this is a bad thing. I did it quite shamelessly when I was in jitsu and never felt inclined to apologised for it. When you throw someone for real they are probably going to hold on as that is a natural way to decrease the impact of the fall. So tori had better be able to deal with it IMO.


We got yelled at lots for holding on. Think more to do with the fact it usually indicated you were too scared to fall, also meant you didn't actually get to practice breakfalling properly. Would someone stay holding on in real life? Maybe, maybe not - throws probably won't be quite as stylish in a real situation - but since a lot of the other things we do aren't completely realistic, it sounds a bit like an excuse in this instance?
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Postby KroSha » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:34 am | #38

:ot: Nao - go to the falling course. Shep will teach you things you've never though of....

Holding on is criticised because it is potentially dangerous. If you are grabbing, there is a good chance that you'll disrupt tori's balance. This may lead to them falling over and landing on you. A knee in the wrong place will ruin your session. Grabbing will also affect your rotation and flight path. This will alter your landing, making the fall sub-optimal and therefore more painful.

Reaching to the ground is also a big mistake. Only of my guys badly dislocated a finger doing exactly that.

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O-Garuma can be a pig to learn. I had loads of trouble with it when I was a :green:. The thing to remember is that it is a dynamic throw. Like Splinter said, it's similar to Kuki-nage. Try to get some 1 on 1 time with an Instructor if you are really having trouble. The main thing is don't stop and twist uki lots.
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Postby Pocahontas » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:33 am | #39

KroSha wrote:Holding on is criticised because it is potentially dangerous. If you are grabbing, there is a good chance that you'll disrupt tori's balance. This may lead to them falling over and landing on you.


In that case, hopefully if they held on in real life you could break something of theirs with your knee!  :D
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Postby KroSha » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:54 am | #40

But not something you want to do to a friend in the dojo (maybe :P).
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Postby Carrot_mop » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:01 am | #41

I have to make a physical effort not to cling on when being thrown after being off training for a while.

When I do it it is not pretty.
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Postby dougal » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:19 pm | #42

Splinter wrote:No I think its a different "style" of the throw.
ok ignore the deidedly unusal set up and entry but imagine hes doing this against a big swinging hook
http://www.fightauthority.com/watch.php?ytv=-wnriSRY1T4

My ogaruma is done,as I said with a taste of kukinage.
Uki devlivers said haymaker, i move to stand to his left direct and draw his punch around while also guiding his upper body with my right hand in his armpit. (NB my r arm is as straight as I can acheive, as he bends towards the ground 90weight forwards) my r leg drives up and through.  Im really not close enough in to follow to the ground IF i get things to go my way


Surely, the whole principal of this 'style' of throw relies upon the 'attacker' giving you his balance by stepping with his front leg and putting most of his weight on it? I can remember being specifically told by TJF instructors to go onto my toes when I 'attack' to make throws easier to do.
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Postby Matt » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:57 pm | #43

I use Ukes on toes as a method for teaching Tori (and Uke) what a near-perfect throw can feel like.  I then follow up that method by getting Tori to think how to get Uke onto their toes using their grip and the movement/dynamic of the throw or technique without Ukes assistance.

Brilliant learning exercise, so long as you follow it up with the bit of the technique to get them there without Uke's help.
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Re: O Garuma - someone convince me this isn't pointless...

Postby sumosan » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:28 pm | #44

GingerNinja wrote:This throw annoys me. I know it's because it's yet another throw I'm doing incorrectly, but it just seems REALLY counterproductive.

You take balance, make them fall forward, stick your leg out across their stomach, which effectively negates your balance breaking and forward momentum using and supports them, preventing rather than encouraging the fall.

:S

I'd get it if it were done much lower than stomach height, so it was 'fall over this' and not 'HA! I've stuck my calf in your stomach pushing you backwards'... but yuh.

'orrible throw.

(ok, googling it suggests it's done more at hip height than stomach height... however, even so, I've no idea how you can maintain your own balance on one foot while pulling them forward with arms shorter than leg which is supporting as much as it's tripping)


...

oh I HATE this throw. I'm putting it up there with 'throws that are as bad as ippon seoinage'.
Okay  seems we have a very defeatest attitude to this throw and ippon seoi nage  my favorite throw.  Practice, practice, practice.  Ask your Teacher to show you what you are doing wrong and don't make the mistake of dismissing a technique iff you don't like it,  take on board all techniques your task is in improving yourself even iff you don't understand the reasons why that comes with time. It's taken close to 30 odd years to fully understand the complex nature of what we practice and there are some throws that I still get wrong, my main aim is to find out what it is I am doing wrong and to correct it.  
But your first thing to do is  ask your Teacher.  

Have fun   :ok:  :rei:
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Postby nao » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:59 am | #45

GN, Goober, KroSha et al.,

I quickly discovered how much of a not a good idea it is to reach for the ground - I nearly landed ON my wrist the first time I made a conscious effort break-fall that way.

Y :shocked: kes!

I went through a bit of a rough patch at the beginning of the last session - a bit of mind-*beep* because suddenly I realized my brilliant hand-first landing idea was going to be totally ineffectual. The session started with break-falling drills (rolls, peg legs, over the belt, etc.,) and when we go to the 'grab uke's lapel, kick high into the air and land on your side' bit, I managed to wind myself REALLY badly. But it was the fact that I couldn't breath for a good 5 seconds that helped me remember what I learned when I was first introduced to peg-legs:

nao: If your breakfalling _always_ hurts then it's quite possible it's your breathing. MY TIP: When about to breakfall try saying `Ooohssssss' (so that you are hissing at the point of impact). This will give you perfect breathing without having to think to much. The downside is that it makes you look a bit special. But you shouldn't care about that. - I don't!
Exactly. Dude, it works so well I don't care how special I look. I started exhaling with the falls and - HALLELUJAH! Sure, some falls still hurt but the seriously excruciating ones are fewer and further between!

...now I just have to remember to remember to exhale ... Hmmm ... do you think there's enough time between being thrown and landing, to say, Thundercats! That would empty the lungs, no?

Ah! But it was suuuuuuuuuuuuuucccchhhhhhhh a relief to finally feel good about breaking-falling again, after so much pain, apprehension and frustration ... it feels like I'm finally shaking-off the SUCK!

THANK YOU ALLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:hug:
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