breakfalling making myself lighter

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Postby ToffeeApple » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:09 pm | #16

Aside from all the other criticisms of this, I would like to add, (partly so people don't think I'm trolling) that sometimes you gotta just work on a technique with your uke allowing you to do so.

That does not mean hitting them until they jump. Lord knows how fed up I am of people doing "weakeners" as some sort of justification for failing to perform a technique. Clearly it didn't work, now get on with trying to take balance instead of "weakening" me. It's bullshit.
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Postby Murray » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:14 pm | #17

I don't mean hit your partner physically in the class ( but that's up to you :) ) I mean your partner has to comply/ act as if they have been hit. If you strike and take your partners balance to throw them forward and they keep strong or pull back it's going to be difficult to throw them. Sorry if I'm not very clear
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Postby Carrot_mop » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:19 pm | #18

ToffeeApple wrote:Lord knows how fed up I am of people doing "weakeners" as some sort of justification for failing to perform a technique. Clearly it didn't work, now get on with trying to take balance instead of "weakening" me.


That's what I was trying to say (badly).

I do appreciate that sometimes weakeners are needed or a required part of the technique. I just get a little annoyed with the strikes that are multiple, unrelated or not needed.

For example, if you are trying to take someone's balance backwards over their heels, you do NOT knee them in the groin (hard) repeatedly and then complain that their head has dropped forward and you can't take their balance (and yes, this has happened to me).
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Postby Murray » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:23 pm | #19

I agree
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Postby Jitsonic » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:13 am | #20

^ also agree, but I think this sort of thing arises from instructors saying "put in a weakener" - but without actually explaining which strike to do and its purpose...

Also this is where Judo holds the advantage over Jitsu. If you're trying to hip throw someone, and they pull back to resist, this is where the Judoka would just go "Meh..." and go for say, O Uchi Gari instead...
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Postby nz_ROB » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:12 am | #21

Jitsonic wrote:.... If you're trying to hip throw someone, and they pull back to resist, this is where the Judoka would just go "Meh..." and go for say, O Uchi Gari instead...
 :D  :D
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Postby chris peacock » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:34 am | #22

cheers guys

im not sure which it is really, i have pretty good balance from rugby and grass cutting pushing along half tonne lawn mowers at 45 degree angles for 20 miles a day

i am actually 19.5 stone but only look about 15 stone. deceivingly heavy. not out of shape so not an awkward shape to throw

my mate joined from my rugby team. he can throw me fine with the hip throws but the purple and brown belts of similar size struggle. i have always taught myself to be a dead weight but im trying to let myself be lighter but some seem to struggle still. im not resisting at all, which makes me think that if i did resist then a throw wouldnt even happen.

i just want to make sure im doing it correctly and not doing anything wrong
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Postby Urban Fisherman » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:10 am | #23

chris peacock wrote:my mate joined from my rugby team. he can throw me fine with the hip throws but the purple and brown belts of similar size struggle. i have always taught myself to be a dead weight but im trying to let myself be lighter but some seem to struggle still. im not resisting at all, which makes me think that if i did resist then a throw wouldnt even happen.

i just want to make sure im doing it correctly and not doing anything wrong

From what you've said there's a question that comes before the one you're asking:

Do you want to learn the style of jiu jitsu you're currently learning or do you want to learn to throw/submit/fight big, strong people who're resisting / fighting you?

If it's the later then the problem is quite possibly the club you're training with. Throwing big, strong, skilled people who're resisting is a very difficult skill to learn, especially if the people in question are bigger and stronger than you, and in my experience there's very few places that are good at teaching it.

If do you want to learn the latter, then your choices are probably determined by exactly what you want to learn: if throwing is your priority try and find the best local judo club (with a number of heavyweights), if your priority is something more like submission grappling then try and find the best local Brazilian Jiu Jitsu club (I've yet to find a judo club that comes close to BJJ levels and groundfighting skill, and I've trained with clubs that are considered very strong on the ground), if all round fighting is your priority then try and find your best local MMA club.
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Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:52 pm | #24

there is no such thing as a bad/unco-operative/difficult uke. there is just poor technique. Don't change what you are to make life easier for other grades; whilst it might boost their ego is it, in the long term, bad for them. Or what will they do if your alter ego takes a swing at them in the pub?
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Postby BrassMan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:55 pm | #25

Fluffy_the_happy_lobster wrote:there is no such thing as a bad/unco-operative/difficult uke. there is just poor technique. Don't change what you are to make life easier for other grades; whilst it might boost their ego is it, in the long term, bad for them. Or what will they do if your alter ego takes a swing at them in the pub?


There really are bad ukes. They range from annoying (won't punch on target etc) to the dangerous (fumble for a lock then drive it on hard).

Probably the best way of training with someone like the OP is probably a lot of uchi komi as most people can't throw someone that heavy slowly, even if he is very tall.
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Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:52 pm | #26

Sorry, really disagree. Every uke can teach you something about someone you might have to deal with. It is the tori's job to deal with it, not uke's to be co-operative. If all you ever get is people attacking as per the script, then what is the point? Why not just take up ballet?

...to the dangerous (fumble for a lock then drive it on hard)...


This would be a tori, not an uke. Unless of course you are getting into the realm of counters...
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Postby Mr.Tibbs » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:20 pm | #27

Jitsonic wrote:^ also agree, but I think this sort of thing arises from instructors saying "put in a weakener" - but without actually explaining which strike to do and its purpose...

Also this is where Judo holds the advantage over Jitsu. If you're trying to hip throw someone, and they pull back to resist, this is where the Judoka would just go "Meh..." and go for say, O Uchi Gari instead...


How does Judo have the advantage? surely the same techniques and counters can be performed in both?
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Postby BrassMan » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:45 am | #28

Fluffy_the_happy_lobster wrote:Sorry, really disagree. Every uke can teach you something about someone you might have to deal with. It is the tori's job to deal with it, not uke's to be co-operative. If all you ever get is people attacking as per the script, then what is the point? Why not just take up ballet?


And quite a lot of the time what they have to teach you is something like "don't try this kind of technique on this body type."

The rest of my post, I was thinking of bad training partners that I've had, from annoying to dangerous.
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Postby Fluffy_the_happy_lobster » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:48 am | #29

and that is a vaild lesson, one that isn't learnt if ukes try and fall for you...
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brakfalling making myself lighter

Postby Hilja » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:43 pm | #30

- yes fluffy, but also sometimes nothing is learned at all by either training partner (as no techniques are actually PRACTISED) if the umpteen stone black belt b*d does not fall to to the optimal extent for the wee beginner. both learn if they take challenge they present to the partner as close as possible to the partner's limit, streeeching it.  find the limit. drill close to it. there is difference between acquisition of new stuff / drilling it / pressure testing it to destruction. start from the wrong end  and you get no-where.

..and sometimes it just fun to make yourself superlight  and feel yourseld fly! weeeee
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