Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Discussion on anything to do with training, techniques, etiquette, philosophy etc..

Moderator: Moderators

Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby captaintau » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:36 am | #1

How important is anatomical knowledge? All serious Martial Artists need a degree of knowledge but how much and what point is a good point to start learning it?

I know that Gremlin believes that anatomical knowledge is essential.

On one of seminars in Ireland on Saturday, I was shocked at how poor one of the instructor's understanding of anatomy was. I helped my training partner to find the area that she was advocating we aim for... and she came and corrected me! She had no idea at all.

And of course I get frustrated by the insistance in Taekwondo that we block using the distal ulna which I know to be very weak.

Is anatomy actively a part of your teaching? Do you look things up outside of class to aid your understanding? Am I being too anal?
User avatar
captaintau Male
Genre Definer
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Worcester
Karma: 41

Re: Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby Nazareth » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:25 am | #2

captaintau wrote:Is anatomy actively a part of your teaching? Do you look things up outside of class to aid your understanding? Am I being too anal?
N/a, yes and no respectively.

How can anatomical knowledge be considered 'anal' when it comes to martial arts?

As an egg and citrus belt I was guilty of atemi to useless places and e.g. trying to put a lock on the middle of the humerus... but later on in my training I was once corrected by a senior grade for palm heeling someone, as apparently it wasn't a valid strike - she was swiftly corrected by KroSha but I was surprised she didn't know about it!

I'd say it's always useful to look outside your style to see how others attack / throw / defend etc. At worst your techniques are validated (I once saw a truly awful Krav Maga ground defence that didn't take bodyweight or leverage into account), and at best you learn something new and quite cool (I once saw a neat elbow attack in Krav Maga!)

But that's a slightly wider definition - since the Martial arts are about more than just medical knowledge, I guess the emphasis is more on knowing what someone's weak areas are, the strong parts of your anatomy, how to leverage your strength / weight / momentum, which way things are supposed to bend, etc.

And, depending on the style, whether or not to learn healing techniques!
"We do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing."
George Bernard Shaw

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Albert Einstein
Nazareth Male
Tumbleweed
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 

Re: Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby Splinter » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:00 pm | #3

We need to have some understanding, sadly all too often this doesnt exist.

How many times have we seen students kick and end up contacting buttock rather than any legitimate target.


And on the same line Ive had a very respected instructor criticise a student for striking the thigh.  Now a "dead leg" isnt necessarily going to be my first strike, but to totally dismiss it as "wronmg" and say there is nothing to be gain by striking the thigh is missing something.
Sensei Spooky
User avatar
Splinter None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Bristol
Karma: 0

Postby captaintau » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:51 am | #4

Splinter, I'm not talking about large striking areas I'm talking about locations of structures like the floating ribs, kidneys, carotid sinus, major peripheral blood vessels and the like.
User avatar
captaintau Male
Genre Definer
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Worcester
Karma: 41

Re: Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby Lady Shizuka » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:28 am | #5

Splinter wrote:And on the same line Ive had a very respected instructor criticise a student for striking the thigh.  Now a "dead leg" isnt necessarily going to be my first strike, but to totally dismiss it as "wronmg" and say there is nothing to be gain by striking the thigh is missing something.

There are 2 nerve motor points which run along the thigh, one on the inner side (anterior femoral) and the other on the outer side (lateral femoral); it's the lateral that typically causes the "dead leg" as striking it hard enough and/or repeatedly causes the nerve to overload, known as a "gross motor dysfunction".  This is part of the PPCT training we receive in Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu.

Oddly enough, I just got notification from amazon.ca of this soon to be released book (I have her martial arts & yoga book and plan on getting this one); while not on targeting anatomy I think you may find it of interest: link
:canada:
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it? -  Eleanor Roosevelt
User avatar
Lady Shizuka Female
Admin
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Calgary AB Canada
Karma: 0

Re: Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby nz_ROB » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:18 am | #6

I think there are some elements of anatomy that are essential to know in martial arts .. and some of the more complex elements that are learnt as you go along. If you are TEACHING then I think it's very important to get it right .. and to not be afraid to be told you are wrong and correct yourself. None of us our perfect and we should all acknowledge that learning is a never ending process until the day we die
nz_ROB
Guest
Guest
 

Postby Nazareth » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:47 am | #7

captaintau wrote:Splinter, I'm not talking about large striking areas I'm talking about locations of structures like the floating ribs, kidneys, carotid sinus, major peripheral blood vessels and the like.
Depends how confident you are that you can strike them, I guess... in my case I'll happily stick to large striking areas ;)
"We do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing."
George Bernard Shaw

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Albert Einstein
Nazareth Male
Tumbleweed
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 

Postby Splinter » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:24 pm | #8

captaintau wrote:Splinter, I'm not talking about large striking areas I'm talking about locations of structures like the floating ribs, kidneys, carotid sinus, major peripheral blood vessels and the like.


I know, but I was illustrating the lack of understanding of even large areas by some people.  To say there was nothing to affect striking the thigh was a gross exageration or badly inmformed

Interesting looking book Lady S.
Sensei Spooky
User avatar
Splinter None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Bristol
Karma: 0

Re: Anatomical knowledge in MA training

Postby Brick » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:34 am | #9

captaintau wrote:Is anatomy actively a part of your teaching? Do you look things up outside of class to aid your understanding? Am I being too anal?
How actively is it taught? Aside from the usual favourites like floating ribs, kidneys etc. that people have mentioned not that much in regular classes to be honest. However a while back one of the senseis from another local club that was teaching us lower grades, novices to oranges IIRC, that night did sit us down for 15-20 minutes at the end talking about various parts of the body and how they could be used/react to strikes or attacks. He actually recommended that we might want to pick up a cheap book on anatomy to get a better understanding of things. Whilst I haven't gone that far I have looked things up from time to time.
Brick None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Birmingham
Karma: 0

Postby Urban Fisherman » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:26 am | #10

I think there's a big danger here that it turns into a theoretical discussion of deadly strikes that cannot be tested, or that people end up reciting Eastern anatomical "knowledge" like George Dillman and his proteges:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk&NR=1[/youtube]

There's also the level of complexity necessary to really understand anatomy and its implications for MA. For instance, the knee is not a simple hinge, but has a pretty complex pattern of movement such as the tibia rotating relative to the femur during the last ~20 degrees of motion. Does anyone really teach this level of knowledge and understand its implications?
"We must plan for freedom, and not only for security, if for no other reason than that only freedom can make security secure." Karl Popper
Urban Fisherman None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 

Knowledge

Postby pressurepoint » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:54 pm | #11

Just been training over the weekend with Dr Ron Chapel (Kenpo Karate) never met anyone with such detailed knowledge of anatomy an how to mess it up, great training, great guy
Paul King - KSOMA Kings School of Martial Arts Peterborough - Kempo Jujitsu, Dacayana Eskrima & Tai Chi

The Sacred Springs Fellowship of Martial Arts
CO-FOUNDER British Kempo Society
User avatar
pressurepoint None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Market Deeping, Spalding, Peterborough
Karma: 4

Postby kazuya » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:37 am | #12

I’d say learning the human anatomy is vital. A while ago, I watched a clip on YouTube about the origins and practice of Shorinji Kempo. I was very much impressed by one section of the documentary where the sensei sat all his students in a classroom (all in gis), and with a dummy model of the human body, taught them about pressure points. He later demonstrated their uses by knocking out two/three of his students using various pressure points, and then used pressure points to resuscitate them.
"A great master, a great teacher, is always gentle and humble. At the same time, he is like a razor sharp sword." - Kensho Furuya

http://www.leicesterjitsu.btck.co.uk
User avatar
kazuya Male
Minister of War
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 0

Postby jitsukat » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:19 pm | #13

kazuya wrote:He later demonstrated their uses by knocking out two/three of his students using various pressure points, and then used pressure points to resuscitate them.
Can he do it to random people who haven't been primed with what to expect?
The rose is the freedom of the rose tree
User avatar
jitsukat None specified
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: London
Karma: 1

Postby OneDragons » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:29 pm | #14

I can knock people out using specific points without them knowing what is coming..........though it tends to involve hitting them in the jaw or neck... :D
The many within One!

Image

Greek Proverb "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."
User avatar
OneDragons None specified
Moderator
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Location: Huddersfield
Karma: 6

Postby kazuya » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:39 pm | #15

jitsukat wrote:
kazuya wrote:He later demonstrated their uses by knocking out two/three of his students using various pressure points, and then used pressure points to resuscitate them.
Can he do it to random people who haven't been primed with what to expect?


He probably could. However, it is the knowledge that fascinates me. I'll post the clip when I find it.
"A great master, a great teacher, is always gentle and humble. At the same time, he is like a razor sharp sword." - Kensho Furuya

http://www.leicesterjitsu.btck.co.uk
User avatar
kazuya Male
Minister of War
 
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
 
Karma: 0

Next

Return to Technical Jiu Jitsu

Signup

cron