Knife defence training MMA style

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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Tom Bombadil » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:25 pm | #46

:lol:
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Hirsty » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:45 pm | #47

Instead of using smilies/emoticons, tell me why you find cutting the wheat from the chaff laughable?

Surely elimination of techniques is as important as picking up techniques.
Last edited by Hirsty on Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby ToffeeApple » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:06 pm | #48

I doubt it is the act of seperating the chaff he is laughing at, but the chaff itself.  The key bit here being that Tom never saw any merit in the video, or the discussion of anything relating to the first reply in the first place.

Tbh, I think the two stick guys defended themselves reasonabley well for the most part.  The key for me though is that they ended up having to grapple for control and both would have benefitted greatly by being better at that sort of thing.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Tom Bombadil » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:05 pm | #49

Hirsty,

I don't know where to begin really, this thread started by looking at an MMA type response to the threat of a knife attack (which imo was interesting and useful) and graduated to stick fighting (which was neither). As I understand it stick fighting in certain quarters is used to replicate knife fighting (where both participants have knives), my point was and is what on earth is the relevance of this to self defence ?
Firstly, as I stated earlier I would never respond to a knife attack by pulling my own knife out and slashing away, nor I assume would anyone elses who lives in the UK, USA, Australia, etc and is a law abiding member of society.
Secondly, someone attacking another person who also has a knife is bound to attack in an entirely different way than when taking on an unarmed person.
Thirdly how likely is it that I am ever going to meet someone (let alone piss them off to the point of attacking me) who owns a knife of that size?

Fourthly I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.

I suppose knowing what not to do is as important as knowing what to do, however, I never found any merit in trying to do a forward defensive shot against a bouncer just to prove that it was a silly thing to do, I kinda figured it out and trusted my judgement.

In short I find the odd  :bang:  or  :P  gets the message accross quite nicely. After all if Toffee Apple understands what I'm getting at how hard can it be for anyone else. :P
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Hirsty » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:57 pm | #50

Fair dos.

But think on it this way - just because something doesn't fit the criteria exactly doesn't mean you can't gain something from it even if it just shows that it wouldn't work as claimed.

But I agree, there is little chance someone in the Western world would attack with a machete etc which is why I reckon that the STAB system is by far the most useful out of all of the videos on this thread.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Tom Bombadil » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:06 pm | #51

Can't argue with any of that. :rei:
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Hirsty » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:39 pm | #52

:rei:
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby nz_ROB » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:41 pm | #53

Hirsty wrote:Fair dos.

But think on it this way - just because something doesn't fit the criteria exactly doesn't mean you can't gain something from it even if it just shows that it wouldn't work as claimed.

But I agree, there is little chance someone in the Western world would attack with a machete etc which is why I reckon that the STAB system is by far the most useful out of all of the videos on this thread.
Does New Zealand count as "The Western World"?   :?  I only ask because I have a current student that has the scars to prove that he has been attacked by a machete. And we recently had two police men attacked by machetes whilst doing their jobs. Obviously we are more "Wild West" then  :lol:
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Hirsty » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:10 pm | #54

Everyone knows New Zealand is Middle Earth
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby nz_ROB » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:08 am | #55

I have noticed that some forum members put no significance on knife training - can anyone expand on this or suggest why or make a counter comment?
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby captaintau » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:09 am | #56

nz_ROB wrote:I have noticed that some forum members put no significance on knife training - can anyone expand on this or suggest why or make a counter comment?


I feel it's because the methods of knife defence used by the majority of styles is seen (probably correctly) as absolute rubbish. Certainly all the knife defence I learned early in my Martial Arts learning (most significantly in Lau Gar) I now look on with disdain. There's been a large-scale debunking take place mainly by the RBSD leaders (Iain Abernethy, Geof Thompson, Jamie Clubb and so on) and to be honest if completely unrealistic / highly flawed material is being taught under the banner of "reality" then all credit to them for this.

The issue that I currently have is that there's a lot of people (on here included) telling us how not to do it, but very few volunteering the solutions.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Uchidachi » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:51 am | #57

captaintau wrote:
nz_ROB wrote:I have noticed that some forum members put no significance on knife training - can anyone expand on this or suggest why or make a counter comment?


I feel it's because the methods of knife defence used by the majority of styles is seen (probably correctly) as absolute rubbish. Certainly all the knife defence I learned early in my Martial Arts learning (most significantly in Lau Gar) I now look on with disdain.

The issue that I currently have is that there's a lot of people (on here included) telling us how not to do it, but very few volunteering the solutions.



It's true most Knife stuff taught is rubbish and it's very easy to knock it.

However often it's the attitude of the instructors that make it rubbish. Familiarisation of edged weapons is very useful even if there are flaws in the teaching. for example if the Instructor emphasises that the training is 'only a drill' or the best defence is to run / create distance - then the students may develop some understanding of what they are up against even if the actual techniques are flawed - understanding the principles and dangers is the most important aspect. The worst thing to do is make false claims and mislead students on the effectivenss of something that won't work when any level of movement or speed is introduced.

Regarding 'aliveness' ...any training (including grappling) that is alive has got to be a good exercise even if it's wrong - especially if you vid and critique it afterwards but of course like all aliveness training (including mma) you cannot make it totally real

In our system when we teach empty hand versus knife we make it clear that our defence is against an untrained knife attacker and use a series of techniques and defences against different angles of attack and scenarios. This is after the student has been taught to use a knife and is familiar with a set of knife attack angles. In our (Filipino) system we call this combat judo.

Will our combat judo system work against an  untrained attacker?  probably if the right person is using it and has trained long enough.

Could I use it to defend against an untrained attacker?  no idea.

I do know system is proven in combat and I pass it on as faithfully as I can and am extremely close to the lineage.

Versus a trained attacker? Well this is probably why no one offers solutions ...this is the tricky bit.... How we approach it is to understand the principles, train with the knife (as an attacker) and as a defender (versus another knife / knife fighting - and yes there is merit in this even if as in the UK you do not carry one). There are also loads of ways to drill defending against fast 'sewing machine' type attacks but of course these are drills to train attributes and increase awareness of this type of attack. Also think about training against a knife with another weapon quite possibly something that could be legally carried in the UK

Regarding the discussion .. a trained attacker is more likely not to lead with the knife but an untrained attacker who is intent to use it is also likely to have it shielded or hidden...rather than show it.

So in summary to defend  against a trained attacker....understand the principles, demonstrate the consequences of a knife (a real knife and an empty plastic bottle does this nicely if you can't run to a leg of mutton :) ) train with a knife, train against a knife, train different weapons, train with knife drills,  but most importantly train how to run .....
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby rne02 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:03 am | #58

I don't put a lot of significance on my knife training for two reasons.

Firtly, all the techniques I have been taught involve seizing the arm or wrist as the knife is thrust.  Something which I believe to be ridiculous.  People, unfortunately, do not lunge with their arm out at full stretch and leave it there.  They may have done this in 16th Century fuedal Japan when these technqiues were developed, but that was becasue they were attacking with Tanto's that have 7" blades so one thrust woudl kill.

in 2011 people don't roam the street carrying 11" knives.  They carry 5" knives (with 2" blades) as these can be hidden in their pocket.  This changes the way they attack you, they tend to get closer and use a "sewinge machine" action to stab you repeatdely, so trying to grab an arm or wrist in this scenario is imo not a option.

I favour the "get out of the way altogether/strike, and then start fannying about with joint locks" approach.

Secondly, the chances of having to defend against a knife are marginal, if someone on the street shows you a knife it is becasue they are trying to scare you into giving them your cash.  If they want to stab you they won't show you the knife , they will sneek up on you and shank you prison style.  The first you will know about it is when you feel the knife in you, and unless you are Luke Skywalker or Derren Brown you simply can't defend against that.

What is the answer?  Simply, no one has the answer.  Esoteric knife fighting systems only end up teaching you defenses against the sorts of attacks that you get in esoteric knife fighting systems, and knife weidling thugs on the street don't tend to attack the same way people trained in esoteric knife fighting systems do.  

Also, I don't believe you should have defenses which are sepcifically for knives (or any weapon).  You should simply learn to adapt defenses you have against similar style attacks, if nothing else this will means you don't have to remember different defenses to different attacks which means you will have a better chance of being able "do it without thinking" when you need to rely on it.

:)
If you can't do it with a fag or a shot glass in your other hand, it's not a proper judo hold.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby rne02 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:46 am | #59

Uchidachi wrote:There are also loads of ways to drill defending against fast 'sewing machine' type attacks

Do you have any info?  It would be greatly appreciated.
If you can't do it with a fag or a shot glass in your other hand, it's not a proper judo hold.
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Re: Knife defence training MMA style

Postby Uchidachi » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:54 pm | #60

rne02 wrote:
Uchidachi wrote:There are also loads of ways to drill defending against fast 'sewing machine' type attacks

Do you have any info?  It would be greatly appreciated.



just get on you tube ... try 'FMA knife' or 'Knife Tapi' or knife drills etc


here's a nice one I've just found from the Balintawak system (not my system but very nice) better still see if there are any FMA classes in your area :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HqzUFpx ... re=related

hope that helps
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