Tried another art today...

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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Gorbash » Sat May 07, 2011 8:21 pm | #16

ToffeeApple wrote:
captaintau wrote:
ToffeeApple wrote:Marching up and down in lines really helped me a few years ago.  It won't teach you to fight, but you do get to work on the actual strikes without worrying about what deadly application this will have on uke, or what your opponent is trying.


All that marching up and down in lines isn't teaching you strikes, it's teaching you throws and locks. You just need the key to unlock the technique.


No.  It was an opportunity to practice the mechanics of my front snap kick, my side kick, putting weight behind strikes and keeping my center of balance.  You are confusing basics with your interpretation of kata, and hidden techniques, which you know I disagree with.


I would agree with ToffeeApple's breakdown.

In terms of Wado ryu Karate (though my understanding may be limited) The basics are a start towards developing a physical and mental understanding of the movement. The movement you develop are a start to begin understanding the concept and physicallity of wadoryu. The use of "Analysis" in Wado, in my current understanding, is that it's flexible in it's application and depends on what is appropriate. What is the appropriate use of the movement...? well i guess you need to thoroughly understand the movement.
Apologies if this doesn't make sense :)

Also in terms of boxing, I've only been a part of 2 different boxing/ kickboxing gyms before and both were for short periods of around 6 months. From what i remember seeing is that they both spent a fair amount of time having beginners learn the basics. such as keeping the guard up, learning the movement to slip, etc. I remember it was quite common to see a class of beginners standing there practicing just the movement of slipping a punch to a timed period before moving on and practicing another movement for a timed period.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby JitsuJin » Sat May 07, 2011 9:40 pm | #17

Some insightful points from all. I managed to find a kickboxing gym locally. I've no idea if its any good but the site looks ok. I'm going to go check it out at some point. I was also intrigued to notice a kyu and dan system in use there, which is interesting. Anyway, hopefully it should give me what I'm looking for.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby captaintau » Sat May 07, 2011 10:43 pm | #18

Gorbash wrote:
ToffeeApple wrote:No.  It was an opportunity to practice the mechanics of my front snap kick, my side kick, putting weight behind strikes and keeping my center of balance.  You are confusing basics with your interpretation of kata, and hidden techniques, which you know I disagree with.


I would agree with ToffeeApple's breakdown.

In terms of Wado ryu Karate (though my understanding may be limited) The basics are a start towards developing a physical and mental understanding of the movement. The movement you develop are a start to begin understanding the concept and physicallity of wadoryu. The use of "Analysis" in Wado, in my current understanding, is that it's flexible in it's application and depends on what is appropriate. What is the appropriate use of the movement...? well i guess you need to thoroughly understand the movement.
Apologies if this doesn't make sense :)


No, it does make sense although I read contradiction in there.

Granted basics are basics and you need to isolate to develop muscle memory and core skills of movement. In just the same way as I started learning to play the Tuba by learning single notes and not a whole song. Still, I was isolating elements of a song in order to learn principles of song playing. I wasn't learning isolated elements of the song in order to practice weight lifting which is what most Karateka are steered toward and is a view that I think TA supports. Yes, you make a "punch" out of these movement but it's a very flawed method of learning and indeed of striking (hence comments on boxing, I suppose). Playing the Tuba inherantly includes lifting a weight but it's not the same as actually practicing correct weight lifting - it's a highly flawed method if that's your objective.

I think that all makes sense.



Edit: I'm training with Iain Abernethy tomorrow, covering just this sort of thing. I'm looking forward to it. My strong advice is if you get the opportunity to train with him then take it.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Gorbash » Mon May 09, 2011 10:40 am | #19

captaintau wrote:
Gorbash wrote:
I would agree with ToffeeApple's breakdown.

In terms of Wado ryu Karate (though my understanding may be limited) The basics are a start towards developing a physical and mental understanding of the movement. The movement you develop are a start to begin understanding the concept and physicallity of wadoryu. The use of "Analysis" in Wado, in my current understanding, is that it's flexible in it's application and depends on what is appropriate. What is the appropriate use of the movement...? well i guess you need to thoroughly understand the movement.
Apologies if this doesn't make sense :)


No, it does make sense although I read contradiction in there.

Granted basics are basics and you need to isolate to develop muscle memory and core skills of movement. In just the same way as I started learning to play the Tuba by learning single notes and not a whole song. Still, I was isolating elements of a song in order to learn principles of song playing. I wasn't learning isolated elements of the song in order to practice weight lifting which is what most Karateka are steered toward and is a view that I think TA supports. Yes, you make a "punch" out of these movement but it's a very flawed method of learning and indeed of striking (hence comments on boxing, I suppose). Playing the Tuba inherantly includes lifting a weight but it's not the same as actually practicing correct weight lifting - it's a highly flawed method if that's your objective.

I think that all makes sense.



Edit: I'm training with Iain Abernethy tomorrow, covering just this sort of thing. I'm looking forward to it. My strong advice is if you get the opportunity to train with him then take it.


i kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't entirely make sense to me, just to clarify, are you comparing ido kihon as single notes?

Thanks for your "strong" advice. I'm happy to train with anybody regarding their area. but i'm talking about Wado ryu. I seriously dont think that that is the best point of call. My stong advice concerning understanding Wado ryu is to seek out Suzuki while he's still around of Shiomitsu or anyone from the 3 major factions of Wado.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby captaintau » Mon May 09, 2011 1:07 pm | #20

Gorbash wrote:i kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't entirely make sense to me, just to clarify, are you comparing ido kihon as single notes?

I'm comparing a single punch to a single note. It was the best analogy I could come up with at the time.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Gorbash » Mon May 09, 2011 2:05 pm | #21

captaintau wrote:
Gorbash wrote:i kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't entirely make sense to me, just to clarify, are you comparing ido kihon as single notes?

I'm comparing a single punch to a single note. It was the best analogy I could come up with at the time.


hmm... ok, that still doesn't help me
take gyakuzuki for example, as it's considered a basic technique, are you saying that the body movement into gyakuzuki dachi while coordinating with the tsuki motion of the arm is equvilent to a single note?

Also if you were training Kata (solo) do you take elements out of the kata to practice?
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Goober » Mon May 09, 2011 4:40 pm | #22

rne02 wrote:
aiki-jitsoo wrote:Learn to box!!

The most sensible thing anyone has said :-)

Trails have been carried out on two occassions to my knowledge, Once in the 1970's by an American Martials magazine, and again more recently by Discorery Channel.  Numerous martial arts were tested and it was found that Western Boxing produces the most powerful punch.  Also the foot movement you learn of getting in close hitting and then getting away out of dnager, means you get much better much faster than you ever would doign Karate.

Boxing doesn't have the ridiculous restrictions imposed on it's students.  No one in a boxing gym is going to devote 20 minutes of a lesson to sorting out your stance because you right foot is half an inch too far to the left.


I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I'd question the validity of their scientific findings, based mainly on the fact that the experiments were, whats the polite way of putting this, utter bobbins.

Of course the 200lb heavy weight boxers right hook was more powerful than the 100lb kung fu masters 1" punch. That doesn't mean boxing "produces the most powerful punches"

Note - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion, as boxing probably DOES teach punching better than any art - just pointing out that citing the discovery programme fight science thing as evidence is a little foolish.

editted to remove accidental chess related confusion.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Gorbash » Mon May 09, 2011 8:58 pm | #23

Goober wrote:Note - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion, as boxing probably DOES teach punching better than any art - just pointing out that citing the discovery programme fight science thing as evidence is a little foolish.


Well, i did chuckle when it was mentioned  :)
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby captaintau » Mon May 09, 2011 11:28 pm | #24

Gorbash wrote:
captaintau wrote:
Gorbash wrote:i kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't entirely make sense to me, just to clarify, are you comparing ido kihon as single notes?

I'm comparing a single punch to a single note. It was the best analogy I could come up with at the time.


hmm... ok, that still doesn't help me
take gyakuzuki for example, as it's considered a basic technique, are you saying that the body movement into gyakuzuki dachi while coordinating with the tsuki motion of the arm is equvilent to a single note?

Also if you were training Kata (solo) do you take elements out of the kata to practice?


It's an analogy, don't take it literally.

Essentially, yes. Gyaku Tsuki with all that it involves (arm movement, foot movement, posture, hand shape, breath, mindset, everything) in this analogy equates to a note which for the tuba would include embouchure, valve, tongue movement and so on.

And yes, of course you take out elements of kata to practice.
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Gorbash » Tue May 10, 2011 8:46 am | #25

captaintau wrote:
It's an analogy, don't take it literally.

Essentially, yes. Gyaku Tsuki with all that it involves (arm movement, foot movement, posture, hand shape, breath, mindset, everything) in this analogy equates to a note which for the tuba would include embouchure, valve, tongue movement and so on.

And yes, of course you take out elements of kata to practice.


OK, so Kihon is "notes" and solo kata would be the "song" in your tuba analogy.

Where is the contradiction you mentioned concerning my first post?
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby rne02 » Tue May 10, 2011 1:12 pm | #26

Goober wrote:Of course the 200lb heavy weight boxers right hook was more powerful than the 100lb kung fu masters 1" punch. That doesn't mean boxing "produces the most powerful punches"

Note - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion, as boxing probably DOES teach punching better than any art - just pointing out that citing the discovery programme fight science thing as evidence is a little foolish.

Not as foolish as making assumptions and then statements on a programme you have obvioulsy never watched.  You do not serioulsy think they compared a boxers cross with a 1" punch?
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Goober » Tue May 10, 2011 5:12 pm | #27

rne02 wrote:
Goober wrote:Of course the 200lb heavy weight boxers right hook was more powerful than the 100lb kung fu masters 1" punch. That doesn't mean boxing "produces the most powerful punches"

Note - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion, as boxing probably DOES teach punching better than any art - just pointing out that citing the discovery programme fight science thing as evidence is a little foolish.

Not as foolish as making assumptions and then statements on a programme you have obvioulsy never watched.  You do not serioulsy think they compared a boxers cross with a 1" punch?


I watched it a while ago, so forgive me for forgetting the specifics, but you cannot be seriously claiming that you think their "experiments" were in any way scientific or comparing like with like?

It might not have been a right hook v a 1" punch, but it was certainly a 200lb boxer v a 80lb kung fu master v a 150lb tkdodo etc
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby ToffeeApple » Wed May 11, 2011 10:19 am | #28

I was hoping that fight science reference was going to shrivel up and die but it seems not.  Bas Rutten punched harder than the boxer.  Does that mean "mma" punches better?  Or should it be tkd, his original striking art?  Or bjj?
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby nz_ROB » Wed May 11, 2011 10:26 am | #29

I think it just means that Bas has a huge punch    :D
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Re: Tried another art today...

Postby Goober » Wed May 11, 2011 12:38 pm | #30

nz_ROB wrote:I think it just means that Bas has a huge punch    :D


And finally we get the the root cause of why it was such a pointless/meaningless exercise.
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