ouch!!!

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Re: ouch!!!

Postby ToffeeApple » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:57 am | #16

OneDragons wrote:Looking at the two videos posted has been quite educational for me. The Mir fight injury is definitely the forearm that broke
Upper arm. :P

I have never liked the americana lock attacking the shoulder. I can submit low level grapplers easily but high level fighters can escape due to space being created by me to allow the force to act on the shoulder, maybe I need to rethink the way I use the lock.


It's one of those things where you gotta follow the corrections of your coach.  The elbow should be kept low, the arm should be a v-shape, not able to go behind the head, and the back of the wrist should touch the mat at all times.
...Aren't you a purple belt? :hide:*


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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:05 am | #17

Thanks for the invite, but not free this Saturday unfortunately. :(
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:07 am | #18

Hi Toffee, thanks for the correction, you are quite right it was the upper arm but still not the shoulder.

No I am still a blue belt :).  Long way to go to purple as yet.

As to the points you mention, I do all those things. Usually what I find is as you lift the elbow the weight shifts towards the head so less on the lower body. If you know what your doing the guy on the bottom can sometimes bridge up whilst straightening their arm and escape. If the bottom guy is not so good they will tap or get a lot of pain, normally I have found that to get a lot of pressure on the arm I have to transfer my weight on my hip closest to their head. Maybe I need to alter something, will see what others say and if I can improve.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby ToffeeApple » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:21 pm | #19

I base out keeping chest pressure on, making sure to keep my leg/knee close by their hips so they can't escape.  I always try to keep my hips heavy on the other side, so as not to sacrifice control.  To keep my head low, and my weight pressing down through my upper body as well, I like to imagine myself resting my chin on the edge of the pool, and hanging there.  It's an analogy I like to use for clinch also - keeping the weight on, but your hips back.  Obviously not ideal for muay thai, however.

Also, the movement I like to use is to lift their elbow as little as possible.  Imagine you are isolating the elbow, now try to use the leverage to push the arm off the elbow, instead of twisting the whole thing.  If they straighten their arm, threaten with a straight armlock to get them to bend it for the kimura.  AS long as your weight is on, it is very difficult for them to regain position, because you've got their arm glued to the mat.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:46 pm | #20

Push the arm of the elbow?
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby bomberh » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:31 pm | #21

OneDragons wrote: Usually what I find is as you lift the elbow the weight shifts towards the head so less on the lower body. If you know what your doing the guy on the bottom can sometimes bridge up whilst straightening their arm and escape. If the bottom guy is not so good they will tap or get a lot of pain, normally I have found that to get a lot of pressure on the arm I have to transfer my weight on my hip closest to their head. Maybe I need to alter something, will see what others say and if I can improve.


It is difficult to articulate technical details in words but I will have a go.  If you can't follow the test below, feel free to PM me and I'll send pictures.

As you raise your opponents elbow (doesn't need to be raised much using this method), simultaneously push their hand down towards their legs.  Make sure that the back of their hand keeps contact with the mat and "brushes it".  Also keep the whole lock tight and pulled in close to their body (i.e. don't allow their arm to straighten).  

The above will keep the pressure on the elbow and enable you to keep your base neutral (i.e. avoid transfering weight up towards their head).

One other tip that will help prevent uke straightening their arm is to use a thumbless grip.  To straighten their arm uke must break your grip.  To do this they must act against the thumb.  If you grip your opponents wrist using a thumbless grip and rotate your wrist forwards, when uke straightens their arm their energy acts against the hand (not the thumb).  The only way to break the grip is to first move their arm inwards, which unfortunately for them tightens the lock.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby ToffeeApple » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:27 pm | #22

OneDragons wrote:Push the arm of the elbow?

bomerh elaborated for me already - down towards their legs.  Also the thumbless grip helps prevent injury to your own hands.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby ToffeeApple » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:28 pm | #23

OneDragons wrote:Push the arm of the elbow?

bomerh elaborated for me already - down towards their legs, as opposed to twisting the arm including the elbow to apply the lock.  Also the thumbless grip helps prevent injury to your own hands.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:58 pm | #24

I usually do it like this from side: http://www.ehow.co.uk/video_6792435_ame ... jitsu.html

Is this different to what you are describing?

If not, finishing it can be hard against a good opponent.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby bomberh » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:34 pm | #25

OneDragons wrote:I usually do it like this from side: http://www.ehow.co.uk/video_6792435_ame ... jitsu.html

Is this different to what you are describing?

If not, finishing it can be hard against a good opponent.


This is broadly the method I am describing.  I would rotate my wrist a little more. I find the set up the harder part.  Personally once I'm locked in I generally don't have a problem finishing.  

When you say that finishing is hard against a good opponent I would agree that if someone is good enough getting any submission is a challenge.  Especially of you are trying to finish a BJJ mundail medalist or an person with super human strength.

The escape you describe is where your opponent bridges up and straightens their arm.  Unfortunately I don't think I can help without seeing what you are doing and how the person is managing to bridge without getting subbed.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:04 am | #26

As ever this is the problem with text based conversation, real movement is just not the same.

Generally I find I have to raise the elbow to effect the lock after pulling the arm down towards their hip. This creates a small space which gives a small space to escape through.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby captaintau » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:09 am | #27

OneDragons wrote:As ever this is the problem with text based conversation, real movement is just not the same.

So film what you're talking about and bung it on YouTube. That's what I do.
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Re: ouch!!!

Postby OneDragons » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:20 am | #28

I found an example of the escape that I've seen a lot. Suppose it's a fight between me locking their elbow and them creating the space.
Almost like who is the better grappler lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZRWW_D9QJ4

Anyway, haven't used this for ages so I'll try it out next session. Though last time I did a quick poll in club most didn't like this as a finish due to people escaping from it.
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